Introduction - 81-83 FI Imperials - Technical Advice

Here are nearly 3 years of email on the 1981-83 Imperial, primarily on fuel injection issues. There are nearly 500 pages of messages here, loosely organized into fuel injection, electrical, chassis, A/C and other categories. The “late 1999” messages are at the end and are not categorized.

Note that these messages use the “outline” feature of Word to identify categories, message subject and date sent as sub-headings - we could use your help to organize this.

All the authors of this document retain all rights of authorship, including this author’s editing and organization. This document is copyrighted and cannot be reproduced, except for personal use without written permission.

Bob Schmitt, January 15, 2000
bsbrbank@pacbell.net

Subject: 81-83 FI Imperials - Technical Advice Introduction

Sent: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:06:31 -0700

From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net

Dick, Carl, Frank, etc. -

I talked to Carl briefly today (about the statewide meet) and think you guys are very close to creating the definitive document - I know about 80% of it has already been posted as messages and Carl probably has the finishing touches.

I suspect the hardest part is to "get your arms around" the topic. I'd like to help, but don't know a things about the cars (and don't own) but strongly suggest you try the "Frequently Asked Questions" style. Heck, most of the posts were written as a reply to a specific question.

You could start off:

What is unique about the FI on the '81 - '83 Imperials?

What are the components of the FI?

How do I troubleshoot a hard-starting condition? etc.

I'm sure you can pick up on this and refine it. One nice thing about questions is that they also lend themselves to an "outline" format and, if you're using Word and never have tried the "outline" feature, it is pretty slick for organizing.

I've got a lot of old messages and could start, but I know there are many more people who could do a better job because they know what they are writing about. Do it! And thanks in advance!

Bob (still working on the Imperial FAQ)

As for volunteering to organize, edit and post all the info on these cars that has been submitted in the year and a half that I have been a member, Tony and I discussed my doing this at one time, but I have not done anything with the assignment, due to a total lack of understanding as to how to proceed, and my belief that others with more computer savvy would be better at it than I, while I can probably make the most significant contribution to the IML by continuing to field technical questions that I have some experience or knowledge about, and let others manage the web site files. As far as I am concerned, the assignment is still unfilled, and definitely would be valuable contribution from whoever was willing to tackle it. Perhaps Tony will have a comment also.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81-83 FI Imperials - Technical Advice Introduction

Sent: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:47:04 -0800

From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net

Carmine -

Thanks for the FI tips. I've collected all the e-mail on this topic from the last 2 years and sent it to Dick Benjamin so that he can put it into a good order for eventual posting on the web site. Carl Baty also has a wealth of info on this topic and will hopefully help with review and comments.

Bob

Subject: 81-83 Imperial - General Description

From: "Dick Benjamin"

Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:23:59 -0800

Walter;

The '81-'83 cars are delightful drivers, with styling and features that rival much newer cars.

The standard engine was a normal 318 (5.2L) with a computer controlled EFI system and combustion control computer, which gave excellent performance and economy, at the expense of difficult maintenance and parts availability if problems do occur, especially with poorly trained mechanics.

If this car has the factory conversion to carburetor, it will be the same in characteristics and serviceability as any other carbureted early 80's Chrysler product. It will still have a computer controlled ignition system, dash board, and mixture control on the carburetor, the same as any other car from that era. It should be no more and no less trouble to maintain.

If the conversion was not done at a dealership with factory supplied parts, you are going to need more information about the car, since the manuals will not cover it. If you'd like to take a look at the fuel system and see if it is a 2 barrel carburetor, and if so what number, and also check the numbers on the computer module on the air cleaner, we can probably tell you if it is the authorized conversion.

Another thing to note is whether or not the fuel MPG readout is functional, and all other dash features seem to work OK. For instance, check the average MPG readout to see if it is reasonable. With a carburetor I would expect the long term average to be about 14 -15 MPG.

If the conversion is not the authorized one, I think you may have trouble passing the smog inspection (I know you would not pass in California) and you will have trouble getting the car serviced unless you have a really savvy mechanic.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81-83 Imperial - General Description

From: Eddenbud@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 00:18:27 EST

Dear Grady,

I've owned my '81 for about four years and my '82 FS for about seven months. My '81 has been converted (by the previous owner) to a non-Chrysler carb. setup, a Holley 4-barrel, while my '82 has the original EFI system. So I'm pretty familiar with the contrast between the two systems and peculiarities of the cars.

As Dick Benjamin pointed out, if a car you're considering has been converted, it's best if it's the Chrysler-designed and supplied conversion. This conversion replaced A LOT of parts, including the gas tank, wiring harness, manifold, etc., and it provided reliable performance AND all of the inputs to the computer necessary for proper fuel calculations on the Information Center. Non-Chrysler conversions may not; for example, my '81, with it's non-standard conversion, does not have an input for fuel burn rate, and so always reads 99.9 MPG (I WISH!!!). Despite these shortcomings, the car does run very well.

I feel that the EFI system is very good too, although it can be very difficult to properly diagnose problems, even to the experienced mechanic--You should see the terrified reactions I've gotten from Chrysler mechanics when pulling into the dealership with one of these cars!! Nonetheless, my '82 is generally a pleasure to drive as well.

Whether you choose an EFI or converted model, you MUST get the complete service manual set, including the service manual, engine performance manual, and (if you can find it) service-bulletin manual. These will prove an invaluable source in leading you and/or your mechanic through diagnostic procedures.

Although both of my Imperials have very good reliability records, I would not rely on one as my only source of transport; they're just not as reliable as a brand new modern car, but how could they be? Since they can be finicky and difficult to diagnose, you might be without wheels for a few days while you or your mechanic tries to figure out what the problem is. On the other hand, I've never had a sudden failure of one of these cars. They always give you signs of an impending problem, and if you heed those warnings, you won't be left stranded.

Here are some other things to watch for when car shopping: The '81's (at least early- run '81's) were notorious for the deck lid rotting out as Chrysler did not provide a proper drain hole (this was an early service bulletin), and the lid would rust from the inside out. My '81 did this, and I was able to replace it with a like-new one. On the other hand, my '82 shows no signs at all of such a problem, as the drain hole problem had probably been corrected on the line by that point.

If the car's been converted to carb., look carefully at how the fuel lines have been routed. You could wind up with a fire if the lines are not properly routed and secured.

As per my previous IML letters, the '81 search-tune radio is an atrocity in engineering, and finding anyone who'll actually touch the thing to work on it is about as easy as finding one that actually works! I'd suggest replacing it with a modern stereo if you get a car with one of those, and hang on to the radio for posterity!

The GOOD NEWS is these cars are really a pleasure to drive. I love driving both of mine. They ride super quiet, soft and comfy, yet still handle better than the whales of previous generations. And the styling is contemporary even on today's roads with aerodynamic "bubble" cars everywhere you look. You will draw admiring glances from any car enthusiast you pass, and you'll hear countless words of praise.

Good luck in your search!!

ED F

Subject: 81 Basic Operation of the EFI ASDM & Other Components

Sent: 8/11/97 2:15 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com

The last few days, Jeff Gaurino, Frank C, Mike Bleznyk, Bob Harris and I have been having an off-line discussion about the operation of an important component of the EFI system. Our jump off point was a very thorough analysis that Jeff did back in June, and sent to me for comment. I was too busy to respond until this weekend, but now I have made a few observations about Jeff's work and bounced them back to him and the rest of the group, and between us we have come up with an analysis that is pretty damn close, we think. I have not been copying you and the IML thus far, because we are still arguing about some items, and because our discussions really are not going to make sense unless one has access to Jeff's schematics (which of course you have posted on the web page) and unless one is an EE or close to it.

Now, though, I think we are ready for prime time. Close enough to put it out to the whole IML, at least those who have an interest in the frailties and foibles of the '81-83 EFI system. I am going to delete some of the detailed circuit analysis from this message, however, you are welcome to a copy of any and all of our discussions, warts and all, if you want to archive it. What I am sending you now is probably still more detailed than most will want, but some members probably will want to see this level of detail, and the others can just let their eyes glaze over.

So, here goes:

Restating Jeff's theory of operation:

The ASDM (AKA ASD) connections:

pin 1 is solid battery voltage when the starter is cranking, is pulled firmly back to 0 when not cranking, (by the starter solenoid).

pin 2 (the output from the ASD) is solid battery voltage when the fuel pumps and EFI system are up and running (ASD makes the decision based on the other 4 inputs)

pin 3 is solid battery voltage when the ignition is on (starting or running)

pin 4 is the control pump drive signal, which varies from battery voltage to zero depending on how much fuel the system is calling for. It will be solid battery voltage during the initial purge cycle (a second or so) and then settle down to some low value depending on what the open loop program calls for in the CCC.

pin 5 is the drive signal to the ignition coil. It will chop from almost 0 to about 6 or 7 volts while the car is running.

NOTE WELL THAT THERE IS NO GROUND CONNECTION WIRE TO THE ASDM, rather it relies on the mounting bolt to the fender, and note also that the circuitry is likely to be quite sensitive, since it involves TTl logic NAND gates connected as latching bistable circuits, thus making Bob Harris' recommendation of a separate ground wire to the reference ground for the CCC a mandatory design fix. Those cars still running without this added ground are asking for starting and mysterious cutting out trouble.

I would suggest at least a #14 wire right to the ground lug on the right rear of the Intake manifold, where most of the EFI system is grounded. The ASD should be isolated from the body ground at its mounting to prevent noise on the body ground from upsetting the circuit.

NORMAL OPERATION OF THE ASD

Upon initial power up, the Ignition comes on, then the Cranking signal. The control pump will not be running since its power source (the power module in the hydraulic support assembly) does not receive power until the ASD says so.

Therefore the pin 4 input to the ASD is held low by the pump windings, and the ASDM is waiting for the crank signal

As soon as that occurs, This pulls in the relay inside the ASD which supplies power to the rest of the EFI system, including the intank fuel pump. The control pump starts to run in the HSA, and its drive signal appears at pin 4 of the ASD.

The pin 5 signal also appears at this time, and if the engine starts, takes over holding up the ASDM in the "ON" state after the cranking signal goes away.

Thus the ASD continues to supply power to the system and we are merrily on our way.

FAILURE TO START :

If the engine does not start, and the cranking persists, the running of the control fuel pump will continue until about 20 seconds elapse, then the ASDM shuts down to avoid hydrostatic (fluid) lock from too much fuel being pumped.

The owner only knows his car isn't starting, he doesn't realize all power has been removed from the EFI system including the fuel pumps. Bye and bye, he gets the hint, and releases the key to the IGN position.

If he goes back to cranking without cycling the switch to off, the car will crank but it won't fire because the whole system is dead. He has to reset the ASDM circuit to normal by turning the key off for an instant, then the whole process can proceed again. If he does this immediately, ASDM shutdown will occur much quicker this time, since the ASDM has a memory which persists for a minute or so and will prevent pumping more than a few seconds the second and subsequent tries. That is why the control fuel pump (the one inside the air cleaner) runs for about 20 seconds the first time you try, then progressively shorter periods down to only a few seconds or until the car starts.

When the car starts, the coil drive signal takes over as detailed above, and the ASD ignores the Crank signal until the next cycle.

If for some reason the car stalls, the coil drive signal goes away and the ASD shuts down immediately. If a noise pulse finds its way into the logic circuit, the same thing will happen. The only way to get the engine running again is to turn the key off and restart.

THIS EXPLAINS THE MYSTERIOUS SHUTTING DOWN OF THE ENGINE DURING NORMAL DRIVING THAT MANY HAVE EXPERIENCED! Add the ground wire and isolate the ASDM box from the fender electrically, as discussed above, to avoid this dangerous possibility.

Subject: 81-83 FI Schematic board layouts and Theory of Operation
Sent: 3/15/97 10:42 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

The project to make available the schematics, board layouts, and tentative theory of operation of the three major components of the 81-83 Imperial Fuel Injection system has reached a major milestone. Tony now has available the information in downloadable format, please contact him for color copies if you need them. Color is required to follow the board layouts since the two sides of the board are shown in contrasting colors. Be warned, they are large, roughly 1.2 Megabytes.

[If you want a copy of these eight GIF files, please e-mail me at XXLTONY@CTS.COM and ask for a copy! - Tony]

The components covered are:

Automatic Shutdown Module (schematic, board layout) Fuel Flowmeter (schematic, board layout)
Power Module: (board layout) ""
Fuel Control Pump Driver (schematic, theory of operation) ""
Power supply (schematic)

This has turned out to be a major advance in knowledge about this system, and much gratitude is due IML member Jeff Guarino, who had the skill, interest, and fortitude to remove the gunk from the boards on his '82 and trace the circuits. IML member Chris Hoffman has taken many hours of his time to convert the hand drawn input from Jeff to a downloadable graphic format and nursemaid the undersigned through getting them to display properly on a PC. (Both Chris and IML meister Tony use MAC's).

We know there are a few typo's and other minor errors in these, do not take them as guaranteed perfect. The EE's in the group who have the time and interest will hopefully study them, as will I, and feed in corrections as discovered. I will be the contact point for this, and will update Tony’s files as needed.

What a group we've got here with the IML, guys - when even the Chrysler Corporation threw up its hands over trying to keep these things on the road, our little seat of the pants operation is going to be the main source of maintenance and repair information in their stead.

Now if we can only find a test set!

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 FI - CCC Electronics Circuit Diagrams

Sent: 2/13/97 9:47 AM

From: jguarino@pangea.ca (jeff guarino)

Hello Dick,

I'm glad you got the diagrams and that you got them in good shape. I've been fairly busy the last week, only now getting time to reply. Your right about the amount of time it took to decipher the circuit boards and put it down on paper but I spread it out over a month or so doing a little every now and then when I felt like it. The hardest part is scraping all of the jelly or whatever you want to call it off the components. At the time (two years ago) I wanted to analyze it future but I shorted out my power supply and a bunch of other more pressing things came up after which I kinda lost interest. Just this year I bought a used FI system for $200 CDN and the car ran fine. I tried substituting back the old parts one at a time and found out none of them were any good. That is all four boards were shot (the CCC, fuel flowmeter, air flowmeter, and ASD). I still don't know what caused the original fault.

You were asking about the 30 ohm resistor in series with the output. Well when I was experimenting around with the board the output would go up to about 60v when I removed that resistor, that is with no load on the output.

I wanted to let you know about a transistor on the power module. I forgot to write it in on the diagram. It's Q37 and it had these numbers on it: o39m 1196, if that means anything to you. Maybe you could write it down on the schematic before you get it scanned? Some of the components on these boards were impossible to read or had no numbers on them at all. So I left those blank with a question mark.

I'm glad to see there is so much interest in these circuits. I did try in vain to get the schematics from Chrysler. I know they're out there somewhere. I would really be interested in getting the CCC schematics and info on how it works.

Jeff Guarino

Subject: 1981 - 1983 Imperial EFI - Web Site Tips?

Sent: 1/17/97 4:04 PM

From: fc3@bellatlantic.net (Frank Cannavale, III) Reply-

Seems like there are a few people out there who are having some problems with the EFI on 80s Imperials. I just added my 1983 Imperial to my web page (see below) and included some pkzipped (everyone should have pkzip) files you can download. The files are GIF format. (Everyone should be able to display GIF files.) Each file is a scan of one page. The filenames are in the format of "PageSS-NNN" where SS is the manual section number and NNN is the page in that section. (That's Chrysler's convention, I did not make up my own, which would be confusing if you wanted to compare with someone else who has a manual.)

BTW, I also stopped by two dealers that sold 81-83 Imperials. Both stated that they still are willing to service them. Maybe some day I'll send mine in, but it is working OK for the little I do with it.

Subject: 81 FI - CCC Electronics Circuit Diagrams

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

The diagrams arrived today in fine shape. Since you made the very considerable effort for use color coding to make them easier to decipher,

I am going to take them in to Kinko's to get them reproduced in color the next time I go into town, which should not be more than a couple of days (I live about 15 miles from civilization). Frank, and anybody else on the line here, Jeff has spent (I would estimate) at least a week carefully tracing out the schematic and board layouts for the 81-83 ASD, Power Module, Fuel Pump Driver and Fuel Flowmeter circuits.

He has color coded to show the printed wiring on both sides of the printed wiring boards, and suggested a theory of operation for most of the circuitry. This, folks, is dedication. Also, one helluva lot of work! MY scanner is only a black and white scanner, but any of you on the IML who would like me to e- mail you scanned images of all Jeff's work, just let me know by e-mail and I will send this all on to you. There are 8 Pages, so the file is BIG!

Any of you who want the color copies, let me know also and I will let you know what it costs to produce a set. I will return the originals to Jeff as soon as I have a good reproducible set. Frank, I assume you want a set of the color copies too, but I will send you the B&W images right away.

Jeff, I have not taken the time to try to analyze the circuits at all, but as I do (and/or if anyone else out there does,) I would like to have a discussion with all parties to see if we can thoroughly understand what is going on with these critters.

From what I can see so far, they don't look too tough. I would comment, Jeff, that the resistor you found burned out in the power module, if I understood you right, was the 30 ohm in series with the 23 volt output, and unless it burned up in such away that it shorted across itself (very unlikely, right?) it would have just interrupted the 23 volts to the other units, which I would not think would damage anything.

Whatever caused the resistor to burn out, however is another story. I hope it was just a bare wire short in the harness somewhere. Did you ever find the cause?

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com ------

Subject: 81 Imp - General

Sent: 1/20/97 6:27 PM

From: grad@cts.com (Carl F. Baty)

Tony, I wonder if it would be possible for those Imperial owners who are writing about a specific year Imperial could put the year up front in the subject. Something link 81 Torsion Bars, or 76 Radiator Needed. In doing this way it would be possible to find the those messages which are most meaningful to us without having to open each and every submission - and those that have time can still open every submission.

I am having my 81 Imperial Ltd. Edition painted over the next 4 days. Wish me luck in getting the job I am paying for. Nancy Kramer and I both own 81 Imperial Limited Editions. We are going back and forth to find out why these exist and how they are different. Anyone out there have a Limited Edition? Anyone know anything about them. Thanks Carl

Subject: 1980's Imperial diagnosis, continued... O2

Sent: 3/4/97 9:14 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

From: George E.Pearson

What is apparently the O2 sensor wire is thin and black. It exits from the cable bundle where it enters the plug at the front bottom of the engine computer it is a foot or so long and ends with a male bullet connector. What I assume is the O2 sensor is like a spark plug and is on top of the left side of the block toward the rear. It has a short thin black wire with a female bullet connector. I have been trying to get the reading you asked for and have been puzzled because I was now getting 0 volts on cranking at the light green wire. Then found that I also got 0 volts from the battery. One of my test leads was intermittent as if I didn't have enough mysteries! I will have to repeat the measuring of the normal mode when the engine cools off in about 4 hours. The cranking voltages at the light green wire in the no-restart mode with the O2 sensor disconnected aa surge of about 8 Volts and then a steady 1 1/4 volt. With the O2 sensor connected the surge was between 7 and 9 1/2 volts and the more or less steady voltage was between 1 and 2. It varied each time I tried. More later.

Subject: 81 FI Diagnosis, ASD Module problems

Sent: 3/4/97 9:56 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

As you have probably noticed I have been using your schematics to try to solve the mystery as to why George Pearson's car won't restart when it is warm.

I seem to remember a remark you made a month or so ago that you have been running your car with the ASD module bypassed, and the thought suddenly occurred to me that you might have had a related problem. In George's case, the CCC is sending out a shutdown signal to the ASD when the car warms up and he tries to restart it. It would be a simple matter to cut the offending wire (#4 pin on the ASD) and tie it back in the harness, and just ground the pin on the ASD to defeat the shutdown command. I'm wondering if that’s what you did, and if so, what were the circumstances that led you to do it?

Right now, I'm following the fact that his so called mechanic sent him home with his O2 sensor disconnected, and it the thought that it may have become contaminated from lack of feedback controlling the F/A ratio. I'd like to see what effect a new O2 sensor will have on his problem. Did you cover any of this same ground?

Chris Hoffman has scanned your color schematics and is forwarding them to Tony for posting on the IML website. I can't wait to see them out there for everyone to use. It is such a pleasure to have some helpful and interested people to pitch in to help these beautiful cars, even if Chrysler has disowned them!

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 FI Diagnosis, ASD Module problems

From: Jeff

Sent: March 8, 1997 1:09 AM

Hi Dick.

I've finally found the time to sit down and do some serious investigating.

I had the same problem you had in trying to figure out the logic behind the ASD operation. After almost giving up I took another look at the manual. Apparently to prevent hydrostatic engine lock(?) during cranking only, ASD pin#4 receives an input from the power module to shut down (see p 14-95 of manual).

If the control pump is signaled to operate at full speed for more than 10 to 20 seconds shutdown will occur. The control pump should operate at full speed for a second or two to pressurize and flush out vapors (see p 14-86).

By taking another module apart I found out the chip is a 4011 chip. Simply 4 nand gates, which I had already suspected. By testing the circuit I've discovered the following: ASD pin#4 must be grounded before power is applied to the circuit. This ensures pin 12 stays low. The circuit consisting of the two nand gates (pins 8,9,10,11,12,13) and D26 act like a flip flop. If ASD pin #4 is left open pin 12 always jumps high when power is applied disabling the start pin ASD pin#1.

So we've established that ASD pin #4 must be low before power is applied to ASD pin #3 (run). When it's done in this order pin 12 stays low and if ASD pin#1 is now held low the relay comes on. Now leaving ASD pin#1 low and disconnecting ASD pin#4 (to simulate hydrostatic lock) C21 and C31 charge up, taking 15 to 20 seconds and cause pin 12 to go high and the relay shuts off.

Next I disconnected ASD pins #1 and #3 and connected back ASD pin #4. C31 is discharged but C21 still has some voltage across it (8v).

Then I connected back ASD pins #3 and #1 in that order and the relay came on. Now disconnecting ASD pin #4 caused the relay to shut off after only 5 seconds because C31 and C21 charged up faster due to remaining charge on C21. This is exactly what it says should happen in the manual.

So after the engine starts (which I simulated by making pin 5 high), I disconnected the voltage on ASD pin #1 and the relay stayed on. Then I disconnected ASD pin#4 from it's grounded state and nothing happened, the relay stayed on indefinitely.

Actually I've been trying to figure this out on and off for the last couple of years and now I'm extremely pleased that I've figured it out. Let me know if this makes sense to you or have I made more mistakes?

The first ASD that I took apart had what looks like a diode added on as a cure for something. That is Dx between pin 5 and pin 3. This second ASD doesn't have this diode and has only a 100k resistor in place of R15 and Rx.

Also I received a circuit diagram, one I've never seen before from Glen Nettelton. It clearly shows a feedback signal originating from pin 6 of the power module going to the CCC and ASD.

Well I think this is enough for one day, isn't it?

hear from you later, Jeff Guarino

Subject: 82 FS EFI and some Electrical problems - O2

Sent: 6/11/97 12:40 AM

From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J.Harris)

I feel like I came in the middle of the movie, but it sounds like your bulkhead disconnect on the firewall is not tight, moisture is getting in and affecting your electrical system. This is neither hard to check nor to fix.

I also tend to think that the oil in the Air Cleaner is from a bad PCV Valve, or the rest of the system is blocked - the hose or port in the base of the Throttle Body. It's not a bad idea to remove the Throttle Body and clean it up with carburetor, (spray), cleaner.

You can also check the Oxygen Sensor circuit in the following manner:

Engine must be warm. Separate the lead coming from the sensor at the rubber connector. With the engine running, hold the male end of the lead in your right index and thumb fingers and rest your left index finger on the battery positive post. The engine idle speed should decrease and if you hold it long enough, the engine will stall. The alternate response is to then switch the left hand fingers to the battery negative post - the idle speed should increase and the engine will run very rich.

If you get no response at all, then the electrical circuit from the connector to the CCC is broken, (open), or the computer is defective. Often the very end of the wire to the CCC at position number 12 on the CCC connector is open due to too much handling, but it can be repaired.

If the CCC responds to both of these tests, but the engine does nothing when the connection to the sensor is replaced, the Oxygen Sensor is defective. When defective or the electrical connection to the CCC is bad, the CCC will default a rich mixture to the fuel system, the engine will smell rich at idle, but the idle speed will become most steady but funniest of all, the gas mileage difference is not measurable!

There are two metal breather ports inside the intake manifold on these engines that deliver the exhaust gases to the incoming air when the EGR valve is open. I would say that these are probably blocked solid if you haven't cleaned them and hence the EGR system is not working even if the valve is working. On the good side, the EGR system only reduces gas mileage and tends to cool the Air/Fuel mixture to the extent that it helps prevent "pinging" on a hot, dry day.

There is another quirk on these cars that many of you might not know about and it is this: The metal-to-hose connection on the AC discharge line near the muffler is very prone to leak. The AC lubricant will drip down onto both of the Field Brush pockets on the rear of the 114 amp alternator and render them useless. The ultimate damage is a highly overcharged battery which will boil and the case will swell and distort. The hose will have to be replaced and the alternator disassembled to clean the slip rings. Good time to replace the brushes.

I believe there were two kinds of wheels available on these cars, two kinds of tires and either leather or Chesterfield cloth interior fabrics. Your choice was at a no-cost basis, the moon roof was an extra cost item.

There is one other item that I wanted to say about the EFI component parts:

Late in the eighties, Chrysler undertook an unprecedented task and refined all of the EFI component parts for this car line, and bear in mind that this happened AFTER production was stopped, long after! All of the tooling, unassembled new parts and returned used parts were gathered along with all of the bits and pieces and transported to a new location and over a year was spent restoring the tooling and test equipment to original specs, and even better.

Then the assemblies were modified to include superior components to avoid early failure and operate the way they were originally intended. The results were vastly improved Power Modules, and Support Plates, to the extent that the bulk of the complaints went away.

To be more up-to-date, Chrysler was ready to rebuild a production run of EFI Combustion Computers just last month, the unavailability of cores was the restraint. This is important because many EFI equipped owners cars will never run right no matter what they do because the parts are inherently defective, right off the line.

New Support Plates are still available and the Computers should be available now.

Despite all this there are still some nagging problems, but I am not afraid to take my Imperial anywhere for an extended trip and there were many years when that was not possible.

As for the Sun EFI tester, I bought one of these from Sun in 1984, new in the box. The price was nowhere near the 1850 to 2000 dollars which was the original price. I called them a few months later to inquire for a friend and they told me that they had taken the last eighty two of these brand new instruments to the dump and bulldozed the dirt over them. On the good side, I can say that use of this tester only helped me on two occasions in diagnosing the problems with the system, all other times it was the way we all are probably trying to get these things running right.

And to boot, the Service Manual Diagnostics are not right.! Knowing all of this, it might be futile to go ahead with the schematics of the various components because either the circuit is different or the components are different - or both.

Lastly, I have come upon an opportunity to acquire many of the little pieces of the EFI components and that includes the Instrument Cluster. I have four pages of part numbers of all the little resistors, capacitors, switches etc., for this system and this may be a great opportunity, my question is would this be a wise investment and are there enough 81-83 EFI owners in need of these pieces. If I don't act soon, I'm afraid another bulldozer will be put to work and that would be sad. I would appreciate some feedback on this item soon.

Thanks to Dick Benjamin for your response.

Bob Harris

Subject: 81 - Dangling tube is an air bleed

Received: 3/1/97 10:52 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Yeah, the dangling tube is an air bleed, and should be there.

Related to your problem? I don't think so, but let me study some.

Dick

Troubleshooting

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 2/28/97 10:37 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

I agree it does not sound like it will be a failure of the secondary ignition circuitry. I would still be very interested in the health of the temperature sensors and air plumbing I mentioned.

Would you be able to produce the symptom (non-start condition) and then, loosen the wing nut on the top of the air cleaner, and pour one tablespoon of gasoline down the center screw, retighten the wing nut and immediately try to start the car. If it starts right up for you, which I suspect it will do, we have eliminated a whole bunch of possibilities. If it still will not start, then we have eliminated another large set of problems. Lets try that, and take our next path of diagnosis from what we learn.

We'll find it, don't give up!

Dick

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 3/1/97 11:11 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

George;

The next thing to check is to look at pin #2 on the ASD (Auto Shut Down Module) when the problem is occurring and see if there is 12 volts on the pin. You will have to jury rig some way to probe it while everything is connected and someone is cranking the starter.

The ASD module is the square thingy mounted with two screws to the right inner fender. It has 5 wires going to it; one is tan, one is black with a yellow tracer, one is dark blue, one is light green, and one is dark green. Only two of them are large wires (#12). The one we are interested in here is the dark green wire. The same wire (other end) goes to the resister mounted on the firewall, toward the top on the right side. It might be easier to get to there. The resistor has another wire to its other end, which is also dark green, but that one has a white tracer on it. I think you are going to find that there is no 12 volts on the pin when the engine is warm and you are trying to start it, but I don't want to jump to any conclusion just yet.

Stay with us here, we are gonna get it!

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 3/1/97 10:06 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

OK, George, now we're getting somewhere.

The fact that the car started when you manually introduced fuel leads us to the conclusion that the fuel supply is not turning on when the car is warm. We have eliminated anything to do with ignition (as it appears you already knew from your ignition analyzer).

the air cleaner temp controlled flapper, I guess what you have to do is take the flex duct off the fender air scoop so you can see the flapper valve operate. It should be opening to let the air from the exhaust manifold area into the air cleaner when the car is running cold, and should close off that passage to allow only cool air from the 4 inch flex duct passageway when the underhood air reaches about 100 degrees.

Now, I am wondering if the air flow sensor is the whole cause of your problems with this car. We need to get a test meter on the signal from this air flow sensor and see if it is telling the fuel system to start up and supply fuel when the car is warm. (Once you get the engine running, it is apparently OK, so we seem to have a chicken and egg situation). Another possibility is that the Automatic shutdown module is telling the fuel system to sleep.

Unfortunately my Engine manual is down at my shop and I need to study it some before I can tell you specifically what wire to look at. Since you have an IGN analyzer, can I also assume you have a VOM?

We'll get this critter straightened out, never lose hope!

I'll talk to you more later (this evening)

Dick.

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 3/2/97 5:37 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Ah HAH! We're homing in on this one. Not to brag, but that’s two for two as to what we though you would find (the 14 volts is right with the engine running, and it should have had battery voltage while cranking, which would be between 10 and 12 volts). Let me think about this for a while.

the history of the problem as described in the note to your son;

MY GAWD! You must be an extraordinarily patient man. I think you have an excellent small claims case (but I'm no lawyer). At the very least, you should contact the appropriate corporate management and tell them the facts just as you did here, with no emotion or flamethrowing. If I were running the business, I would certainly want to know how my customers were being treated. Damn, they really screwed up a beautiful and valuable car.

We'll fix the FI, just hang in there.

Dick

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 3/3/97 10:07 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

OK, George, I printed out your results and rearranged the columns. I wish I knew why the E-mail does that to tables.

Anyway, I got most of the info I need. The pin 4 voltage of 1.3 volts in the no-start condition. is probably the root of the problem, unfortunately this lets the ASD off the hook, we've got to look into the CCC and the power module. I would like to know what this voltage is when the car is cranking in the conditions where it will start. I assume its 0 or thereabouts, and I know its hard to do, since the car will start pretty quickie and only give you an instant to notice, but if you could get someone to crank it for you when it cools off so that you know it will restart, it would be nice to know what the normal voltage is here. As I say, anything below about 1/2 volt is OK.

Some time way back when we started this discussion, you told me about a wire you found the dealer had not reconnected. You fixed it, and it did not seem related to the problem, but just for completeness, I'd like to know what color the wire is, and where it comes from/goes. If it came from the O2 sensor, it is probably related to the problem, because the car would have been driven with no power to the O2 sensor, which would probably poison it.

It is out of the picture on a cold start, and would cause the same symptoms as you are seeing, I think. (Not sure about this, anybody else out there ever run one of these puppies any distance without the O2 sensor hooked up?)

Still at it, Dick.

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 3/4/97 9:57 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

OK, George, I think you've identified the wire correctly. The O2 sensor is actually threaded into the left exhaust manifold/header, it samples the oxygen percentage in the exhaust once the engine is warmed up and it is the main control signal for the CCC. It is a black #18 wire (small wire) with bullet connections to the sensor pigtail. Is this the wire that you found disconnected previously? I mean when the garage screwed your car up in the first case.

If you are out and about today, you might pick up new one (they are only few bucks) and install it. They are easily contaminated and it is possible that your whole problem started here. When you install it, if you see the need to use thread sealer on the threads, be sure that you use sealer that is specifically approved for use with Oxygen sensors.

The # you want is an OS 101 sensor, very common, should be available off the shelf at any parts store. (I use NAPA, a little more expensive parts, but reliable quality).

In another message, which I will CC to you, I am going to ask another guy who is knowledgeable about these critters for a little help here. Stay tuned.

Dick

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 3/2/97 11:45 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

George,

The next step is to see what is going on with the ASD module. It might be bad, or it might not be seeing the right information from the other devices. One by one, then, on the ASD:

1. Check the voltage on pin 3: (heavy dark blue wire) -- should show 12 (volts more or less) whenever the key is on in either the run or start position.  (This is really a check of your ignition switch, which is not likely to be the culprit, but lets be sure)

2. Check Pin 1: (a smaller tan wire). Should show 12 volts when you are cranking, (a little less because of the load on the battery, but not less than about 10 volts. (This is really a check of the starter relay, which is also an unlikely candidate for blame, but lets be sure.)

3. Check pin 4 (a small light green wire) while you are cranking when the non-start condition is occurring: It should be 0 volts (not more than 1/2 volt max.) and stay there while you crank. Ill bet its not staying down when the car is not starting, but is down when it starts OK.

Lets verify these facts and then take it to the next step. We will know, after these measurement whether its the ASD or something else.

Dick.

Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem

Sent: 3/4/97 9:11 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

George

OK, I understand the "bad test lead" phenomenon, having fought such all my life. I knew it would be a tough measurement for you to make, but it would be good to have the information. I might have misled you in the discussion about the O2 sensor - I did not mean to ask you to make the measurements of voltage on the light green wire with the O2 sensor disconnected - just leave it connected.

Another message follows for you.

Dick

Subject: 81 FI - vacuum sensing information

Sent: 3/5/97 10:39 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

George;

I owe you an apology. You said a dangling vacuum tube that was black with a yellow stripe and I assumed without checking that you were noticing the unused port on the ERG control valve that sits near the left front of the engine. This is the device you mentioned with the part number 4227670 on it. The "unused" connection to the vacuum circuit is indeed an air bleed, and would not have anything to do with our mystery problem. HOWEVER!!! This evening, I got smart and had my wife come out to my 81 with me and point out a black tube with yellow stripe on it...

You were right all along, there is such a tube, and it should be hooked up. It goes into the bottom of the air passageway that is the continuation of the 3" flex duct that pipes air over from the fender air ducting. The purpose of this little black/yellow tube (I always though this one was black/green, so I didn't make the mental connection when you told me about it) is to provide vacuum sensing information to the EGR valve. Having this tube disconnected would screw up the smog readings on the car, but I do not think it will turn out to have any effect on our starting problem. Sorry.

One thing we still have not investigated that is warm-up related is the temperature sensor and flapper valve that controls whether the air cleaner gets air from the outside world or under the hood.

This is the device that is right up against the fender next to and a little behind the battery. If you look under the main (3") flexduct, you will see a smaller (2") duct that comes from the exhaust manifold area of the engine. Its purpose is to provide warm air during startup when the underhood temp is under 100 degrees.

When the car warms up, this 2" tube should be closed off and the main tube that goes out to the front of the car should be open. If this changeover were not taking place correctly, it is possible that you are not getting sufficient airflow when starting if the car is warm.

I think this is a slim chance, but just to eliminate it as a possible cause, take the 3" ductwork completely off the car, and just let it run without it for testing purposes. This is the duct with the plastic click-down strap clamps on each end, one on the air cleaner "snorkel" as you call it, the other at the flapper valve we discussed above.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 1981 Imperial - Running rough

Sent: 3/28/97 6:04 AM

From: lester@cnwl.igs.net (Shawn Thompson)

Just took my car out of the garage after a five month rest It started well, I let it run for about twenty minutes, I was hoping that my problems would've cured itself. Well, no luck.

The roads were clear of snow and nice and dry, so I decided to venture over to see my mechanic once again, I explained how the car was running. After thinking for a couple of minutes, he reached down and unplugged something and ask me to try the car like that.

I made a appointment to have him check it out completely NOW THE GOOD NEWS: my car was running GREAT.

I called him when I got home to let him know. He claims that what he unplugged controls the amount of fuel going to the FI system and that the engine wasn’t getting enough gas.

He told me what this sensor was, but I guess I wasn’t listening. When I take it back to have it replaced, Ill let you know EXACTLY what my problem was.

(RELIEVED) for now - keep up the good work:

Cliff Thompson Ontario Canada

Subject: 81 FI problems

Sent: 3/31/97 8:48 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Most likely what he unplugged was the oxygen sensor (AKA O2 sensor). This is a thingie that looks sort of like a spark plug, and it is threaded into the left exhaust manifold.

There is a one wire plug dangling from the Air Cleaner electronics unit that plugs into the one wire receptacle on the pigtail from the O2 sensor. These are easy to replace (like a spark plug) and cheap, and easily available from any parts store.

Running without it connected is giving you substandard power and economy, and excessive pollution. If a faulty O2 sensor is all that has caused your problems, you are a very lucky man. Replace it and go back to enjoying your car the way it was meant to run!

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 FI problems

Sent: 4/7/97 11:20 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

I think you have proven that the air flow sensor IS working, or else it would not have had such a noticeable effect when you restricted the air intake. In fact, you have led me to believe the real culprit is the fuel flow sensor, which was suggested way back in the beginning of this discussion by Frank C. (and who I have copied with this response). Frank described a method of dealing with the problem which included investigation of the fuel flow sensor, and I remember him making the point that this is a likely cause of your problem, and also that it is much cheaper than the air flow sensor to take care of. You should review his original posting on the subject, it was just after this car and its problems were first discussed. Unfortunately I've had a crash on my system so I do not have the comments Frank made at the time, but he will see this response, and perhaps you can get in touch with him through the IML to obtain his thoughts again. Listen to the man, he knows his stuff.

Good luck, now

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 FI problems FF Sensor

Sent: 4/9/97 2:15 AM

From: bmb@zoomnet.net (Brian, Barb and now Dennis)

We will definitely explore the fuel flow sensor as soon as the car can be started again.

What I don't understand is how the AF sensor could be good. If the fuel sensor was feeding too much gas and then we choked the air wouldn't that make it burn even more rich? or would that in effect tell the gas flow sensor to lack off the gas and that is why it temporarily straightened out?

Help me I'm confusing myself with all these possibilities!!! Brian

Subject: 81 FI - Start problems

Sent: 4/9/97 11:19 AM

From: DBaker5197@aol.com

Brian,

First off, you can't tell a sensor ANYTHING! (They are kinda like teenagers) Sensors send signals to the main processor and that is ALL they do. From a strictly operational standpoint, if a sensor is missing or sending a signal that the processor has been programmed to ignore (i.e. a voltage or resistance which is too high or too low) then the processor will substitute a static reference signal in its' place (which is pre-programmed at the manufacturer) which causes the computer to operate in either the "open loop" mode (if the engine has just been started) or the "limp in" or "limp home" mode (if the sensor(s) go bad after warm-up).

If the car will not start at all (either hot or cold) then you have a more basic fuel and/or ignition problem. A basic test for the fuel pump is to park the car in a quiet place and have someone listen at the rear of the car while you turn the ignition to the "ON" position. The listener should hear the electric fuel pump run for approximately one second and then shut off. (Do NOT turn the key to start position).

If this does not happen, then you have a fuel pump/wiring, or auto shut down relay problem, or a blown fuel pump fuse. (Check all of your fuses first, since there may be a fuse blown that supplies power to a portion of the computer) Remember on a fuel injected Chrysler product, the engine control computer is in two separate modules.

The power module is the one under the hood, and the logic module is in the passenger-side kick panel, along with the auto shut down relay and MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor (which could also be causing the problem). Also, the coolant temperature sensor (located in the thermostat housing) could be bad. This sensor, when cold, allows the logic module to "demand slightly richer fuel mixtures and higher idle speeds until normal operating temperatures are reached.

The coolant temperature sensor allows the logic module to act like an “automatic choke" (quoted from Chilton's service manual). Basically, you will (assuming that the fuel supply and ignition systems are healthy) have to check all of the sensors in a step by step fashion or lay out a lot of money trying to substitute parts in a hit or miss fashion.

Your best bet would be to call your local public library and see if they have a Chilton Manual (most libraries do) and check it out and use it. If you like it, you can contact them for a copy of the manual covering your model year (they usually cover 4-5 model years in one edition) at the following:

Chilton Book Company Chilton Way Radnor, Pa. 19089

Or go to the parts department of your local Chrysler dealer and get an order form for the factory manual. I do this every time I get another car, and they have been invaluable to me, since I do all of my own service/repair. Good luck and let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Dave

Subject: 81 FI - Start problems

Sent: 4/9/97 7:25 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Just focus on the fact that your changing the air flow had an obvious effect on the EFI system, or else the result would have disappeared as soon as you removed your hand instead of persisting for a few minutes. The computer must have made an adjustment in response to your restricting the air flow, thus something detected that restriction, it had to be the air flow sensor. (I think).

Reread Frank C's posting about cleaning out the fuel flow sensor, and give that a try. It won't cost you anything, and there is a good chance it will straighten the car out.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 FI problems - FF Sensor
Sent: 4/9/97 7:25 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Just focus on the fact that your changing the air flow had an obvious effect on the EFI system, or else the result would have disappeared as soon as you removed your hand instead of persisting for a few minutes. The computer must have made an adjustment in response to your restricting the air flow, thus something detected that restriction, it had to be the air flow sensor. (I think).

Reread Frank C's posting about cleaning out the fuel flow sensor, and give that a try. It won't cost you anything, and there is a good chance it will straighten the car out. Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 FI problems - AFS

Sent: 4/9/97 7:25 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Just focus on the fact that your changing the air flow had an obvious effect on the EFI system, or else the result would have disappeared as soon as you removed your hand instead of persisting for a few minutes. The computer must have made an adjustment in response to your restricting the air flow, thus
something detected that restriction, it had to be the air flow sensor. (I think). Reread Frank C's posting about cleaning out the fuel flow sensor, and give that a try. It won't cost you anything, and there is a good chance it will straighten the car out.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 FI - Start problems

Sent: 4/10/97 8:20 PM

From: bmb@zoomnet.net (Brian, Barb and now Dennis)

OK sounds good. we will try it when we get the starter changed. I guess what I was thinking was the AFS was way out of calibration and that’s why when we choked it straightened out. but we'll definitely do the FFS thing ASAP. I should really thank you for all your help on this subject. And everyone else
too THANKS!!!

I read a message that someone had a good GIF or JPEG of the system. Could I possibly get it?

Do you know how many 81s were produced? The dealer in Huntington that sold the car said 1000 but I’ve heard more like 4000. Brian

Subject: 81 FI problems - GIF

Sent: 4/11/97 11:19 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Tony has the GIF files on his web site. There was a posting (by me) as to how to get them printed out in a useable size about 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately I have had a disastrous system crash, and I can no longer make a copy for you, but I think Tony has the info at his fingertips.

Tony's web site also has the production statistics for the three years of the cars, I believe. If not, bug me and I will repost them.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 FI problems

From: grad@cts.com (Graduate, Ltd)

I have my 81 FI Imperial up and running well now. I will share what I learned very soon. I just met a guy named Gary who owns an 81 Imperial FI that just (80 miles ago) came out of a computerized tune up at a dealership in Anaheim, CA. named McPeek. He drove the car back to San Diego and it was running great.
Suddenly he has a problem which has stopped him cold. He let the car sit for awhile and it needed a jump. When he applies the cable it arcs back a him. I told Gary about the IML and that I would seek the wisdom of the group for him.
Reply to Grad@cts.com

Carl Baty. Thanks folks.

Subject: 81 Overheating

Sent: 4/20/97 11:17 AM

From: lvovski9@idt.net (Brian Liberman)

Hi, I am Brian, live in Libertyville, IL, own 1981 Imp. Some time ago as a member of IML I received your mail regarding Lou's Garage in Lake Forest.

Today, I am looking for a place to fix my car which suddenly presented me with the overheating problem. All displays, except battery (VOLT) light which stays on all the time, went down and antifreeze was shooting from all places and angles in engine compartment and under the car.

Would you be kind enough to provide few more details about your particular experience with that place? What kind of car they fixed for you, what was the problem and how long did it take them to do it. Did they give you a written estimate in advance? At $56/hour ongoing labor rate and peculiar FI on my '81, it's highly desirable not to make a mistake in choosing mechanic.

Thanks in advance. lvovski9@mail.idt.net

Subject: 1981 Imperial - Fuel stop valve

Sent: 5/4/97 8:15 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

OK, Shawn I think we're on the same page now.

If you have the shop manual for the car, go to page 8-195 and look at the components on the driver's side inner fender. About 1/3 of the way from the hood hinge to the front of the car is the "throttle body switch relay".

This is a metal box of the size you describe, and it has 6 wires going to it. The wires are two black wires with a faint pink stripe, three solid black wires, and one violet wire with a faint black stripe on it. There are actually only 4 contacts used on the relay, two of the 6 wires are paired up with identical
wires in single cavities of the connector to the relay. The connector to the relay may consist of two separate pieces of plastic with wires crimped to terminal sockets that mate with the prongs on the relay, or it may be all in one piece.

To understand the purpose of this relay, you can read about it on page 14-86
of the "engine performance" manual. It is the device described under "Back-up
Circuit for Closed Throttle Switch". In case you don't have these manuals, let
me explain that the purpose of this relay is to retard the timing and enable
the automatic Idle speed motor (to regulate your curb idle) under conditions
that are rather unlikely, namely that the idle stop contact (which does the
same thing) has for some reason failed, and the driver is holding his foot on
the brake pedal. In any event, this will only affect the engine operation at
curb idle, and only if failure has also occurred at the idle stop contact.

You can check this out yourself by pulling the connector off the relay, and
temporarily grounding the violet wire via the exposed end of the terminal
socket in the connector, while the engine is idling. I'll bet you don't notice
any effect. If you do notice an effect, then investigate the violet wire that
plugs on to the contact that is touched by the throttle valve lever (when the
accelerator is released) on the passenger side of the car, near the right
front of the throttle body. You'll have to remove the top part of the air
cleaner to get a good look at this contact. Either the contact is dirty, or
the wire is not plugged in.

Remember, this only affects curb idle, don't waste your time with this if you
are having driveability problems at speeds above idle.

I have forgotten what symptoms you are trying to cure, so I am not sure if
this is germane to your situation.

Dick

Thanks for taking time to help solve my problem, after having my car checked
out, it still isn't running up to par. Carl Baty suggested to check the fuel
stop valve, well, I have to admit that I wouldn't know one if I was holding it
in my hands. After receiving your Email, I checked for a parts number and I
came up with this. 1411576. Does this number sound right? The box which I
checked is roughly 1"x2" and it has four prongs on it. It is located on the
right side under the hood directly over top of the wheel well. Yes, my car is
still EFI. I may have checked the wrong box. You may have guessed, by now,
Dick, that I'm far from being mechanically inclined. If you would take time,
Dick, to check out this number, I'd appreciate it

Subject: 1981 Imperial "symptoms" - EGR

Sent: 5/7/97 8:33 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Good list, Shawn(or is it Cliff? I just noticed the signature is not Shawn).

One thing that is very suspicious on your list is the EGR valve. This would
cause approximately the symptoms you describe if it were stuck in the "on" or
open position. If the mechanic bypassed it, he probably had the same
suspicion. It is quite possible that even though it is "bypassed", it could
still be allowing exhaust gases into the intake manifold. I would rather he
took it off and cleaned it out (you don't say how many miles are on the car,
but often these things get horribly carboned up, especially if the car is over
100,000 MI.)

He could also apply an external vacuum source to it and verify that it
operates properly. The only thing that concerns me about blaming the EGR valve
is that the car only does it after warming up thoroughly. If the EGR valve was
bad and stuck open, I would have expected it to be that way all the time.

The first thought that occurred to me is that your low speed injection nozzles
don't seem to be working, at least when the car is acting up. If your mechanic
is comfortable with doing it, I would ask him to take the fuel injection rail
assembly off the hydraulic support plate, and carefully disassemble it into
its component parts, which include both a high speed and a low speed (pressure
controlled) fuel valve, a small fuel filter, and four separate little squirt
holes that aim the fuel down into the maw of the throttle body.

The assembly comes out with two screws and disconnection of a fuel line, and
disassembly only involves two additional screws. There are 3 or 4 O-ring
seals, but they are never bad in my experience, and they are available at any
parts store anyway. After a careful and thorough cleaning, your car will
either be fixed, or exactly the same. It won't be any worse (which with these
critters often happens when you try to fix them).

Your need to depress the accelerator to start is telling us that something
isn't kosher with the Automatic Idle Speed system. Verify that the violet wire
(it has a faint black stripe on it) is connected to the switch contact at the
front passenger side corner of the throttle body. Verify that the switch
contact is working properly such that the violet wire is grounded when the car
is at idle. Just for the heck of it, try to start the car with your foot on
the brake.

(This activates a backup system to the idle switch contact we just discussed,
and should produce the same result if it is working, about a 50-50 chance.)
This would also explain your problem with stalling at idle, which these cars
never do if the AIS system is working right. Did you ever happen to notice if
it DOESN'T stall if you have your foot on the brake?

It is also possible, of course that the AIS (throttle positioning) motor has
failed or is unplugged, it is near the switch contact we just discussed, and
it is connected to the throttle linkage via an adjustable link. The motor is
in a gray rectangular metal box about 2 1/2 X 1 X 1 1/2 inches, with an
electrical connector, and it is held to the throttle body with two screws.
These seldom fail, but they often get disconnected when people are fiddling
around with the fuel injection. (There is also a throttle position sensor in
the same area, but this seems to be working OK. It is a round black deally,
with an electrical connection).

Lets take baby steps from here, and see if these suggestions lead to pay dirt.

I am going to copy the IML with both sides of this correspondence, there are a
lot of members interested in these cars, and there are some other very
knowledgeable people in the group also, I may have missed something that they
can add, and others may want to save the info for future trouble shooting.

Dick

Subject: 1981 Imperial "symptoms" - EGR

From: Shawn Thompson <lester@cnwl.igs.net

Good morning Dick:

Thought I'd get back to you to let you know exactly how my car is running. On
a cold start, I have to press the throttle slightly when starting. After
starting, it will run a bit on the rough side until it warms up. It runs well
for about 15 to 20 minutes, then at low speed, lets say, from 0 to 40 km, it
seems to be starving for fuel. After reaching 40 and upwards, it runs well.
When coming to a complete stop, most of the time it will stall. A month back I
thought we had found the problem after taking it in for a complete check-up,
but I guess it was only wishful thinking on my part because it's still running
the same way. Dick, my car is still in mint condition and we'd love to find
out what's causing this problem, so anything you suggest, I willing to try.

I'm listing the parts which I've replaced:

Computer in 1994
Fuel flow meter
Valve seals
Timing chain
Distributor pick-up
Plugs and wires

Now, this is a partial list of things we've checked:

Coolant sensor
Oxygen sensor
Fuel pressure switch

and for some reason we bypassed the EGR valve Well, Dick once again, thanks
for your time and knowledge.
Cliff

Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle?

Sent: 5/8/97 9:57 AM

From: wes@direct.ca (Wesley T Foulds)

I have a 1981 Imperial with 128 thousand miles on it and want to know how to
adjust the idle on it. It idles too fast.

I also need to know why it backfires. It seems to backfire when it is in
neutral and I push on the gas to rev the engine if any one has info I would be
very happy to hear from them on Imperial mailing list or at my Email
wes@direct.ca

[My request is that we keep all such technical discussions here on the IML, so
I can archive them on the IML's websites for future reference - Tony]

Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle?

Sent: 5/8/97 5:39 PM

From: DBaker5197@aol.com

Wesley,

Backfiring is a symptom of a mixture which is too rich. (If it's through the
exhaust and not through the throttle body. If through the throttle body, then
your mixture is too lean, you've jumped a tooth on the valve timing, which is
a possibility with a high miler, or your base ignition timing is WAY too far
advanced, which would also cause the car to idle too fast) I don't have my
service manual handy but I don't believe that the idle speed has a screwdriver
adjustment. The AIS motor controls a small air valve, which is just like
pulling a vacuum hose off. The speed picks up, but the engine doesn't go rough
because the computer increases the fuel flow. Try checking out the O2 sensor
in the exhaust manifold. It will be a relatively cheap and easy fix. Good
Luck. Dave

Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle?

Sent: 5/9/97 7:52 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Wesley;

Is your car still EFI, or has it been converted to carburetor? The answers to
your questions depend on knowing this. If you are not sure, look to see if it
has a fuel pump mounted to the front passenger side of the engine under the
Air conditioner compressor. It will have fuel lines going up under the air
cleaner from this location rather than up the right rear of the block, which
is where they are for the EFI system.

Dick Benjamin

From: wes@direct.ca (Wesley T Foulds)
To: ImperialML@aol.com

I have a 1981 Imperial with 128 thousand miles on it and want to know how to
adjust the idle on it. It idles too fast. I also need to know why it
backfires. It seems to backfire when it is in neutral and I push on the gas to
rev the engine if any one has info I would be very happy to hear from them on
Imperial mailing list or at my Email wes@direct.ca

Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle?

Sent: 5/9/97 8:32 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Just for accuracy, the AIS system adjusts the throttle butterfly position in
response to control signals from the CCC to maintain a constant idle speed on
the EFI system. Vacuum leaks, AC clutch cycling, dropping it into gear, time
of the month, tidal waves, altitude, attitude, temperature, phase of the moon
etc. have no effect on the idle speed (other than a brief transient) if the
CCC is working properly.

If the car has been converted, Dave's comment is probably correct, I have no
experience with converted cars in this area (even though I own one, I have so
far managed to ignore it.) With a carbureted car of any stripe, however,
another and very common cause of a "backfire" through the exhaust system is an
intermittent spark to one or more cylinders. (Remember guys, when we were
teenagers, how we got the girls walking down the street to notice us???)

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle?

Sent: 5/12/97 8:02 PM

From: fc3@bellatlantic.net (Frank Cannavale, III)

Don't forget the obvious:

Check the ignition timing is to spec.

Check that the distributor mechanical advance is OK, springs and weights
attached

Check that the timing chain is not too worn and allowing the timing to "walk"

-- Frank Cannavale, III fc3@bellatlantic.net http://nj5.injersey.com/~fc3

Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle?

Sent: 5/14/97 4:56 PM

From: CUDAIZE@aol.com

I have also heard that it could be as simple as gapping the spark plugs
correctly.

I know of at least one car that a guy sold because he couldn't get it to run
properly and the new owner took it to his mechanic and all he did was gap the
plugs properly.

The guy who got rid of the car felt pretty bad, needless to say.

Mike Afflerbach

Subject: EFI parts FI

Sent: 5/28/97 3:19 PM

From: jguarino@pangea.ca (jeff guarino)

Hi Jeff. I currently have 2 FS models 1982 and 2 others but only one with fuel
injection.

I may be able to help you out with some of your electrical problems. I'll get
out my manual and take a look.

In the meantime you mentioned a bunch of nonfunctional fuel injection parts. I
would be interested in knowing what you have exactly and what you would want
to sell it for. I may be able to salvage something. I currently have a set of
nonworking parts and have some knowledge of electronics so I might be able to
make use of the parts to restore one of my FS models. I'll get back to you
with some suggestions about your electrical problems.

later Jeff Guarino

Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI

Sent: 8/13/97 9:50 AM

From: Greg.Campbell@GAT.COM (Greg Campbell)

Tony and all,

Thanks to Dick Benjamin, Jeff Guarino, Bob Harris, Mike Bleznyk and Frank
Cannavale for schematics and analysis of the EFI system.

When I bought my '82, the control pump would run at full speed all the time
during crank and run. It was undrivable needless to say. A mechanic took the
air cleaner cover loose (unknowingly disabling the mass flow sensor too) and
just told me to CRANK IT! Quite a ball of fire came out and singed his hair. I
was in such a hurry to drive the car that I just told him to fix it. He
replaced the entire hydraulic plate, electronics included, for (only!) $1600.

I could have waited until I got the shop manuals, at which time I gained an
understanding of the system such that I could do some intelligent diagnosis. I
still keep the old hydraulic plate in case any mechanical parts wear out. I
bet with those schematics I can find the component that allows that pump to
run full speed.

I am an EE after all! I've even thought about taking one of those cheap single
board industrial microcontroller or digital signal processor demo units and
redoing the whole thing. It would be a fun project but I guess the EPA and
CARB would have a cow.

[Still, I think it would be a worthy project - It sounds like we have another
top-quality 1980's Imperial expert on our team! - Tony]

Greg ('60, '67, '82)

Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI

Sent: 8/13/97 4:59 PM

From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott)

I don't own an '81-'83 Imperial (well, not yet anyway), but I've always been
fascinated by them, and especially the electronic fuel injection.

And I must say that I am just impressed all to hell by the work done by our
crew on this topic. It's really great to be part of a group of such ingenious
and intelligent people. In less than a year, these guys have managed to get
together and investigate and solve problems that Chrysler Corporation was
never able or willing to deal with. Wowsers!

Elijah

Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI

Sent: 8/16/97 9:58 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

been fascinated by them, and especially the electronic fuel injection. solve
problems that Chrysler Corporation was never able or willing to deal with.

Well, speaking for myself, the posies are nice, and thank you.

But I feel that what we are doing is largely revisiting most of the fixes that
the better Chrysler service reps must have figured out when the cars were new
or nearly new. Bob Harris has remained close to the Chrysler crew, and is
providing a lot of insight into some of the things they have done to try to
make these cars more reliable. I think they never really cured all the
problems, thus the official recommendation to convert to conventional
carburetion (at the owner's cost!).

We still need to get access to the schematics for the CCC/ESA unit, the whiz-
bang dash electronics, and the EFI portion of the Combustion Control Computer.
We may have to do the same on those items (disassembly, depotting, and
painstaking circuit tracing work) that Jeff Gaurino did to produce the
information we have on the power module and the Automatic Shutdown Module.

The cars are definitely worth preserving in their original form, both because
they are a delight to drive when everything is right, and for historical
honesty.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI

Sent: 8/17/97 5:05 PM

From: Greg.Campbell@GAT.COM (Greg Campbell)

When I bought my '82, the control pump would run at full speed all the time
fix it. He replaced the entire hydraulic plate, electronics included, for
(only!) $1600.

I bet with those schematics I can find the component that allows that pump to
run full speed. I am an EE after all! I've even thought about taking one of
those cheap single board industrial microcontroller or digital signal
processor demo units and redoing the whole thing. It would be a fun project
but I guess the EPA and CARB would have a cow.

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Greg:

You certainly can figure out what would cause the control pump to run full
time. Most likely the output PNP punched through and clamped the control pump
drive signal to 12 volts. Of course it could have been a failure of one of the
previous stages in the power module, but in any case it would be child's play
for an EE with the schematic to track it down.

Have you downloaded the schematics from the web site yet? Take a look at them,
if you have, and tell me what you think of the circuit surrounding Q52. We are
not sure what kind of device it is, the board is labeled A, G, and C, which we
now think probably means anode, gate and cathode, but we are (so far) in the
dark as to what the electrical characteristics of this critter are. (I retired
in 1979, and was really out of direct responsibility for circuit design for 10
years before that, so by this time I am really out of touch with semiconductor
technology.)

There are a couple of really minor errors on the schematics, we will update
them when we feel we have tracked down all the facts. I do not think the
errors will bother you, but if you see something you are puzzled about,
contact either me or Jeff Gaurino, who really did the lion's share of the
work.

So glad to have another EE to talk to about this critter.

I will copy the other guys who have been following these discussions, please
join us and throw in any thoughts you care to. If you would like copies of our
previous discussions, let me know and I will dig out a set and sent them to
you.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info

Sent: 8/17/97 11:19 AM

From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris)

Dick,

Read your latest - here's some info, that is general in nature, but applicable
to all 318 and 360 LA block engines.

The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the rear, horizontal flange
area, in front of the distributor mounting. A tube of RTV Sealer, Mopar part
4026070 and part 4105671 will repair that manifold leak see Service Bulletin
09-04-82 for details. It is NOT necessary to remove the manifold to effect the
change.

For the small piping details in the fuel system within the Support Plate there
is a note about avoiding fuel leaks - this is the new Pressure Switch TSB -
and in essence it states that you should use Locktite 290 on the threaded ends
of the fasteners of each respective joint that you may have disassembled and
this will prevent any future fuel leakage. This stuff is available at many
places. Too bad, the Pressure Switch is NOT available from Chrysler.

Bob Harris

[I'm getting goose-pimples! This is so cool, to have such wise folks sharing
such useful tips - It's unprecedented in the hobby! - Tony]

Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info

Sent: 8/20/97 7:23 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris)

Bob wrote:

Dick,

The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the rear, horizontal flange
area, in front of the distributor mounting.

Bob;

I saw all the discussion in the service manual leaks at this point, and the
use of the anaerobic and RTV sealers, and did follow the procedures described.
What intrigues me about your posting is the mention that the leak would be an
air leak! I always assumed that the leaks that were problematical were oil
leaks, and the consequences were merely cosmetic.

Now I am wondering if this could some way be a cause of my mysterious low
speed idle problems. I'm not sure how air could get into the intake passages
through this (failed) seal, however. Do you understand it?

there is a note about avoiding fuel leaks - and in essence it states that you
should use Locktite 290 on the threaded ends of the fasteners of each
respective joint

One of the cars had Locktite on the threads, I forget if it was the one that
leaked later or not, I had them both apart so many times! But the one with
Locktite was a bear to get apart! I had to remove the whole fuel rail assembly
to the bench vise to avoid scarring up the fittings on the little curlicue
line, my Snap-On line wrench was rounding off the corners!.

When I put them back together, I did not use any sealer, but I did have to
check and retighten the fittings a couple of times. As you no doubt know, you
can make the control pump put out its maximum pressure (about 80 PSI!) by
disconnecting the FPS and powering the S5 18TN wire from the starter relay
directly from the battery. Sure get a good look at the 8 spray patterns that
way, and find any leaks.

Thanks for the tips, I'll be out looking at the back of that intake manifold!

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info

Sent: 8/21/97 12:09 PM

From: fc3@bellatlantic.net (Frank Cannavale, III)

The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the rear, horizontal flange
area, in front of the distributor mounting. A tube of RTV Sealer, Mopar part
4026070 and part 4105671 will repair that manifold leak see Service Bulletin
09-04-82 for details. It is NOT necessary to remove the manifold to effect the
change.

Wait a minute, there! Are you suggesting that the intake manifold can develop
a leak at the rear of the manifold so that extra air enters the manifold, such
that the air-fuel mixture is substantially leaned out?

If so, I think I know what is wrong with my '83!

Frank Cannavale, III fc3@bellatlantic.net

Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info

Sent: 8/22/97 12:26 PM

From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris)

Wait a minute, there! Are you suggesting that the intake manifold can develop
a leak at the rear of the manifold so that extra air enters the manifold, such
that the air-fuel mixture is substantially leaned out?

If so, I think I know what is wrong with my '83!

Frank,

What I suggested to Dick was that it is possible to have the intake manifold -
head interface leak under the manifold rather than on the top be even more
pronounced if there were an air leak, in addition, at the Manifold/Block. The
PCV system would enhance such a leak since it pulls air from this internal
cavity.

If the gasket interface on the underside, (Manifold/Head), is not tight, then
you could indeed have this problem - which is certainly not limited to these
EFI cars by any means. What is peculiar about Dicks' car is that he feels that
the problem is located in the center of the engine, but moreover, on both
sides. This doesn't sound right, but he's about to remove the manifold again.

It should be remembered that a manifold flange leak, such as we are
discussing, could indeed disrupt the mix ratio because the PCV system is now
drawing air from an additional area - the atmosphere - and this could change
the intended allowable mixture ratio. An additional gasket leak at the
Manifold/Block area would be more detrimental than a defective PCV system
because the cylinder vacuum is not limited by the spring loaded PCV valve. The
PCV valve hose connects to a cavity on the Throttle Body, which is in the
center, but I feel that I'm getting far afield from the real problem and
speculating.

I'd like to know more about your problem.

Bob Harris

Subject: 81 FI Problem with Stalling

Sent: 8/30/97 12:16 AM

From: grad@cts.com (Graduate, Ltd)

I need some advice in curing a problem that has thrown me. About two months
ago my 81 w/ intact FI started stalling during the warm up period. I am
defining the warm up period to be about 15 minutes. She starts every morning
beautifully and then will stall, usually three times, before she starts
running consistently. I have hard wired the fuel shut off module ground. I
have installed a new in tank fuel pump.

I have replaced the fuel filters. I have re-calibrated the computer. I have
checked the back pressure on the converter.

I need suggestions on what to try next. She will stall on freeways at 65 mph,
or at idle, or at a restarts after she cools off some, but she always starts
perfectly the first time in the morning and she runs consistently after the
first 15-20 minutes and at least 3 stalls in that time period.

Looking forward to your responses.
Carl Baty, San Diego.
Subject: 81 FI Problem with Stalling

Sent: 8/31/97 4:09 AM

From: STUDELICHP@aol.com

I have a similar problem at startup and have been unable to find the problem.
I also had the high speed problem but was able to fix that by changing the
sensors on the engine. You know map, oxygen etc. Didn't cost a lot and they
need to be replaced every 50K anyway and I did not do that.

Let me know if you find out what the other problem is mine only started when I
retired mine from everyday to weekend use only.

Subject: 81 FI Problem with Stalling

Sent: 9/1/97 6:42 PM

From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris)

I need some advice in curing a problem that has thrown me. About two months
ago my 81 w/ intact FI started stalling during the warm up period. I am
defining the warm up period to be about 15 minutes. She starts every morning
beautifully and then will stall, usually three times, before she starts
running consistently. I have hard wired the fuel shut off module ground. I
have installed a new in tank fuel pump.

I have replaced the fuel filters. I have re-calibrated the computer. I have
checked the back pressure on the converter.

I need suggestions on what to try next. She will stall on freeways at 65 mph,
or at idle, or at a restarts after she cools off some, but she always starts
perfectly the first time in the morning and she runs consistently after the
first 15-20 minutes and at least 3 stalls in that time period.

Hello Carl,

I have experienced your problems some years ago and will pass on to you some
ideas to stop the problem. My problems always occurred after some warm-up
period. Upon cooling, it would usually restart.

It is my opinion that the fault is Ignition rather than Fuel. During warm-up,
when it stops, remove the Air Cleaner Cover and have someone go through the
Start cycle, you should see some fuel squirting from the Spray Bars. It's a
good idea to have grounded the secondary wire from the coil to the distributor
prior to Start. Two tries may be necessary to get the fuel to spray. Recycle
the Ignition key to Off, then repeat. If you get the fuel, proceed to Ignition
tests.

Remove the 10 Way connector from the rear of the Computer, and connect an
ohmmeter between connector terminals 5 and 9; you should read 150 to 900 ohms.
If yes, connect one ohmmeter connector to a good ground, the other to
connectors 5 and 9 alternately; there should be no continuity; if there is,
disconnect the Pick-Up Coil connector at the Distributor and connect one lead
of the ohmmeter to ground, the other to each terminal, on the Distributor end
of the connector, there should be no continuity. If there is no continuity,
check the wire from the Computer to the Pick-Up Coil for a short to ground,
this may be an intermittent thing, so carefully trace the path and look for
abraded insulation on this wire. If there is continuity, replace the Pick-Up
coil.

Because you cannot predict when this fault will occur, I have been able to
warm the Pick-Up coil with a hair dryer, while the ohmmeter is connected to
the two wires, and in less than ten minutes, under mild warming, the ohmmeter
will open and this will indicate that there is a problem within the Pick-Up
Coil - replace it. There were a bunch of 81's with this problem and it was due
to a bad production run of these coils.

By the way, where did you get the new In-Tank Fuel Pump?

Let us know how you're doing.

Bob Harris

Subject: Sluggish '81?

Sent: 9/7/97 8:31 AM

From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott)

On Friday, I was driving along and saw a bright flash of big red fin --
naturally, I followed it.

The result was that I met a guy who lives a couple of miles from me who's a
big Mopar enthusiast. The big red fin I saw fit onto a '58 300D convertible,
replete with tan leather interior. I followed the owner back to his warehouse,
which had about 15 or so cars, including a '59 Plymouth Fury convertible, a
'74 'Cuda convertible, and a bunch of other fun cars.

This gentleman also owns an '81 Imperial. He said that he really likes the
car, but he can't find anyone locally who can work on it. His current problem
is that the car is just very sluggish. He said that he initially thought the
catalytic converter was clogged, but he had it replaced with no resulting
improvement.

Can anyone offer some suggestions here? The gentleman does not have e-mail, so
he cannot participate directly with our club, but I don't mind relaying
messages. I'm sure he would also be willing to contact people by phone.

Thanks!

Elijah

Subject: Sluggish '81?

Sent: 9/8/97 11:39 PM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Elijah;

I guess question #1 is, is the car still EFI, or is it carbureted, and if it
has been converted to carburetor, was it the factory conversion or a backyard
job?

If it is an EFI car, it should never be sluggish! See if you can get more
definition of what he means, for example, missing? Flat spot? How about
variations from cold to hot?

First step on ANY car with driveability problems is to replace the plugs
(AL945 or RN13LYC, gapped at 0.035-0.040" for an EFI car), wires, cap and
rotor.

Next, make sure the air filter is clean, when in doubt, look through it at the
sun, if you can see light through it is OK.

Next, Unless it has been done in the last few thousand miles, I would replace
the O2 sensor. They are supposed to last 50,000 miles, but if the car has been
run with a miss, or on the wrong gas, or with the wrong gasket compound, it
could be contaminated. Usually, the driveability impact of a bad O2 sensor is
small, however.

On an EFI car, it is important that the 8 fuel nozzles are atomizing the fuel
properly. This can be checked on the car, but it might just be easier to take
them off and clean them with a good spray can carburetor cleaner.

After taking off the air cleaner upper section, the fuel nozzles are removed
by disconnecting one fuel line and unscrewing two Phillips screws - it’s not
rocket science. The nozzle assembly has to be taken apart (two more Phillips
screws), but if he has an affinity for mechanical repair, he can do it without
a problem.

It is also imperative with these cars that all vacuum hoses and electrical
connections are clean and tight, especially those inside the air cleaner assy.
If all of that is shipshape, I would put a timing light on it. It should be at
12 BTC at idle.

Has he done a compression check? How many miles on it? Does it still have the
original exhaust system and smog equipment? There are many opportunities to
screw these up by playing around with the original design.

There are 4 or 5 people on the IML who really know these cars, if he wants to
fix it, we'll help.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: Sluggish '81?

Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 6:19 PM

Sent: 9/7/97 8:31 AM

From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott)

On Friday, I was driving along and saw a bright flash of big red fin --
naturally, I followed it.

The result was that I met a guy who lives a couple of miles from me who's a
big Mopar enthusiast. The big red fin I saw fit onto a '58 300D convertible,
replete with tan leather interior. I followed the owner back to his warehouse,
which had about 15 or so cars, including a '59 Plymouth Fury convertible, a
'74 'Cuda convertible, and a bunch of other fun cars.

This gentleman also owns an '81 Imperial. He said that he really likes the
car, but he can't find anyone locally who can work on it. His current problem
is that the car is just very sluggish. He said that he initially thought the
catalytic converter was clogged, but he had it replaced with no resulting
improvement.

Can anyone offer some suggestions here? The gentleman does not have e-mail, so
he cannot participate directly with our club, but I don't mind relaying
messages. I'm sure he would also be willing to contact people by phone.

Thanks!
Elijah

Subject: Sluggish '81?

Sent: 9/11/97 1:41 AM

From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott)

I guess question # 1 is, is the car still EFI, or is it carbureted, and if it
has been converted to carburetor, was it the factory conversion or a backyard
job?

If it is an EFI car, it should never be sluggish! See if you can get more
definition of what he means, for example, missing? Flat spot? How about
variations from cold to hot?

I do know that this car does have the original EFI system. I've tried to call
the guy to give him the information you provided, as well as to get a more
detailed diagnosis of his problems. I'll post what I find out...

Thanks for the help!

Elijah

Subject: 81-83 problems listed/Let's finish the EFI pages!

Sent: 9/16/97 6:50 AM

From: TZRX85A@prodigy.com (PATRICK J LE)

OK; there's a few specifics...

1. New battery and starter, new resistors (on the firewall).

2. Extremely difficult starting. Didn't even turn over last time I tried! (I
do get the 'click' of the solenoid activating.) If it does turn over, engine
doesn't fire. Sometimes takes up to 1/2 hour to get it to actually catch and
run.

The original carb has an electronic module that was fried. I got hold of a
replacement carb (complete, used) off an 82 that someone had converted to a
standard carb. Put this one in and had the same problems, although not as bad.
The module was fairly intact when I got the replacement carb, but after a
couple of weeks, it started to fry (melt). So I think I've got some kind of
electrical problem, in addition to a fuel flow problem (probably tied
together!!) I also got the complete wiring harness with the replacement carb,
which I swapped in; didn't seem to help matters any. So there ya' go!!

Frustrating?? You bet!! Did I go searching for live hand grenades?? Yes!! Do I
still have the car?? Of course!! It's like an old dog you just don't want to
get rid of!! When it did run, the ride was very smooth and pleasurable. So I
guess, like anything, there are 'trade offs'...

I did go to the Web page to search for the answers, but the link to the EFI
section didn't work. Also, the link to Doug Crowder's (?) Web site (something
like 'fourtyfour.com') also came up as invalid. Don't know that he's still
with his ISP.

[Yeah, I need to yank that reference. The EFI web-pages are at a dead
standstill because we have TOO MUCH information for me to process alone - The
past discussions need to be broken into separate threads, and I'm simply not
qualified, since I don't know the topic very well. All we need is some text-
editing skills and somebody with some time! - Tony]

As far as personal data, I'm still in Tujunga, CA (just outside of Glendale,
in the LA area); my wife and I are moving to the San Francisco Bay Area in
about 3 or 4 months; this necessitates getting the ol' Imperial off the ground
and back among the land of the living.

Any help I can get from ANYONE will be greatly appreciated! (So all you EFI
'gurus', how 'bout some tips?)

Pat tzrx85a@prodigy,com

Subject: 81-83 Carb Fix/WHERE? Re Imperial 81-83

Sent: 9/15/97 3:56 AM

From: SAMDNEW@aol.com

I have found a local in Baton Rouge, LA who has a cheap fix for the EFI
system.

EMail SAMDNEW @ aol

My 82 sat up for 2 years with no parts or kits. Darrell Bacon can adapt a
Plymouth carb. to the system and everything works with original equipment
except the computed mpg.

Subject: 81 w/ FI stalls during warm up

Sent: 9/16/97 7:57 PM

grad@cts.com

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

OK, Carl.

I did not recall seeing your earlier post on the subject, I would have
responded if I had.

Not that I have any brilliant ideas, though.

Grounding the Automatic Shutdown Module is the right move, and is recommended
to anyone with an EFI car. The ASM aka ASDM (which you are calling the fuel
shut off valve) is actually a quite sensitive logic circuit which decides
based on numerous sensor and condition inputs whether or not to allow the EFI
system to have the power it needs to operate. Thus bypassing the power to just
the in-tank pump will not cure the problem if this circuit is screwing up,
because it will still shut the car off even though you have kept the in-tank
pump alive with a bypass. Once this occurs, the key must be cycled to off and
back to start to reinitialize the system.

Your symptoms are still consistent with a poor ground at the ASDM, and I would
first verify that the ground wire is securely connected, and is of least #14
Gauge. It should go to the engine ground either at the alternator bracket or
to the master ground point at the rear of the intake manifold on the passenger
side (there are two braided ground straps there already.) It is also a good
idea to isolate the ASDM electrically from the fender where it is screwed
down, by arranging some rubber grommets or the like and preventing metal to
metal contact via the bracket or the screws.

The reason for this is the ASDM circuit is hair trigger, and due to a
surprisingly amateurish error, was not protected from random noise spikes
which could occur even due to static discharge.

Assuming this has all been done, the next area for investigation is any ground
connection elsewhere in the system. Be sure not to overlook the grounded
terminal inside the Hydraulic Support Assembly (under the air cleaner housing,
next to the right front mounting bolt that come up from the throttle body
through the HSA.) While you are at it, disconnect and clean with contact
cleaner (Radio Shack is a source) all the connectors in the system. There are
4 on the air cleaner assembly, one on the HSA, one on the ASDM, two large ones
in the main harness under the heater control valve. Check the connections to
the EFI coolant sensor (next to the water outlet from the intake manifold to
the radiator upper hose) and to the components mounted on the firewall.

Verify that all the vacuum hoses are in good shape, and properly routed. There
is a diagram on the left inner fender just under the speedometer cable sender
module in front of the left hood hinge. Verify that the air cleaner lid is
well sealed and tightly fastened.

The fact that this seems to be related to the warm up period, brings to mind
that it is possible that the air switching timer is somehow causing the
problem, although it is hard to see how it would cause a shutdown. If the
above steps do not cure this problem, we'll pursue bypassing the various smog
devices including the air switching system to see if there is any improvement.
This is not likely, and I wouldn't suggest going in that direction unless all
the more common problems are eliminated.

It is possible that your ASDM is defective, but I rather doubt it. If you have
already gotten a replacement, by all means try it, but I would save your money
otherwise, until we prove it is the culprit. If you start on an Easter Egg
hunt hoping to stumble on the offending part, you will waste a lot of money,
and possibly never figure out what was really wrong.

A quite likely culprit is the pickup coil in the distributor. If you are
fairly handy with tools, this is not a difficult or expensive item to change.
You will need a feeler gauge in addition to common hand tools, but if you
carefully mark the position of the rotor and the distributor body before you
disturb it, you can get by without a timing light.

I am interested in your mention of a fuel pressure gauge. I take it this is
something someone has added to the car? If so, what point in the system is
monitored, and what is the usual reading?

I know you will get other suggestions from the members of the IML, I hope one
of us can make it go away for you. Keep us posted, and good luck (you'll need
it!).

bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 w/ FI stalls during warm up

Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 2:38 PM

From: Graduate, Ltd <grad@cts.com

I wrote on 29 Aug asking for suggestions. Now I am begging for help and ideas.
I don't know what to do next.

I am still fighting a stalling problem with my 1981 Imperial. Most of the fuel
injection system was replaced when the car had about 73,000 miles on it. The
car still did not run consistently and the owner let the car sit from 1987
until I bought it 18 months ago. I have added 13,000 miles since then. The
basic problem the car had with the erratic running was fixed by cleaning the
ground to the fuel shut off valve (located high on the right front fender
wall). I did not have the heart to tell him. Recently I hard wired the ground
to the fuel shut off valve and I recommend this to anyone with fuel flow
problems, particularly in starting.

My stalling problem started about 4 months ago. The first morning start is
always clean and then during the next 15-20 minutes the engine quits, usually
3 times, at any RPM (freeways included) but never during acceleration. It
starts again without problem. After the 3 stalls the car runs well until I let
it sit for a time and it cools off. The next start is then again followed by 3
stalls within the first 15-20 minutes. Typically, this partially cold start is
followed by stalls within seconds of the start although a stall 15 minutes
later is still possible.

I have by-passed the fuel shut off valve so the current ran directly to the
in- tank pump and it still stalls. When wired directly to the in-tank fuel
pump I was getting normal fuel pressure even when the car stalled. In stalls
with the fuel shut off valve hooked up I registered zero fuel pressure. On
freeways I watched the fuel pressure gauge and when it fell like a rock I
began the restart so quickly that I didn't lose speed. Tomorrow I will replace
the fuel shut off valve although I know it is not the source of the stalling
problem. I have replaced the in-tank pump and fuel filters. I have re-
calibrated the computer and hard wired the ground on the fuel shut off valve.

Now I will sit back and wait for the those more enlightened to come to the
rescue. Thanks in advance.

Carl Baty, San Diego

Subject: 81-83 problems listed/Let's finish the EFI pages!

Sent: 9/17/97 6:03 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Patrick;

I never saw the previous messages regarding your problems, I have been away a
bit the last few weeks, sorry. Let me get myself on board here and maybe I can
help some.

bondotmec@alphainfo.com

OK; there's a few specifics... 1. New battery and starter, new resistors (on
the firewall). 2. Extremely difficult starting. Didn't even turn over last
time I tried! (I do get the 'click' of the solenoid activating.)

This does not sound like an EFI related problem, unless we have an hydrostatic
lock problem here. What do you do to get it to turn over?

If it does turn over, engine doesn't fire.

Sometimes takes up to 1/2 hour to get it to actually catch and run.

This is quite likely a failure of the fuel system to prime the pump in the HSA
and to purge the vapor from the lines. Next time you can bring this symptom
about, try putting about 1 ounce of fuel in the depression in the center of
the air cleaner lid before you try to start the car. Loosen the wing nut long
enough to let the fuel drain down the center screw threads, then retighten it
and try to start the car. If it starts immediately, we know where to look
next. Let’s not jump the gun, though. Try this test and let me know.

Of course, you mean to say throttle body injection unit, or Hydraulic Support
Assembly (HSA for short). I don't mean to nit-pick, but we don't want to
confuse the rest of the readers.

The original carb has an electronic module that was fried. I got hold of a
replacement carb (complete, used) off an 82 that someone had converted to a
standard carb. Put this one in and had the same problems, although not as bad.
The module was fairly intact when I got the replacement carb, but after a
couple of weeks, it started to fry (melt). So I think I've got some kind of
electrical problem, in addition to a fuel flow problem (probably tied
together!!) I also got the complete wiring harness with the replacement carb,
which I swapped in; didn't seem to help matters any.

I think what you are probably seeing is the running out of the potting
compound from the electronic modules. This happens to all the early production
modules, and does not affect the operation dramatically, as long as it has not
run down into the throttle valves and gummed up the butterflies.

The EFI web-pages are at a dead standstill because we have TOO MUCH
information for me to process alone -

Tony, all I can do is apologize. I have been saving all the threads since the
beginning of time, and I just seem to be too intimidated to start on what I
agreed to do for you. Perhaps when I am more confident of my ability to do the
work, I will get going on it again. In the meantime, I am happy to take over
personally to field all the EFI questions, at least to direct them to the
right guy to answer them. We have 4 or 5 guys who are very willing and able to
help, and I am trying to keep them from repetitive tasks by fielding the
questions myself so far as I am able. I know this is taking more time than it
would take me to do it right, I just need to get some time ahead so I can look
at the task again. I am sorry to let you down.

bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 w/ FI stalls during warm up

Sent: 9/17/97 8:12 AM

From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin)

Carl, I reviewed the traffic from the IML during my inattentive period and I
do now see your earlier posting of your problem.

I see that at that time, Bob Harris also suggested you look at the distributor
pickup coil, and gave some suggestions for diagnosing it and perhaps prodding
it to fail for you with a hair dryer. If you have access to a VOM, why don't
you try his suggestions also, in addition to the others you will receive.

If you do not have the equipment, the pickup coil is cheap, readily available
at NAPA (make SURE they give you the one for an EFI car!). I looked up the
number, it is Echlin # MP811 $20.50, and for another $5.51 why don't you
change the reluctor # MP800 also. They are both easy to change (I hope you
have the manuals), so you might just try the shotgun approach on these items
if everything else we suggested leads nowhere.

bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 w/ FI stalls during warm up

Sent: 9/18/97 7:54 AM

From: mblez@juno.com

Hi Carl,

Have you taken Bob and Dicks advice yet on testing or changing your pick-up
coil?? It would only take you a minute to test it when the car quits. This is
the perfect time to see if it's good. We need your feedback so we can help
you. If you can't do these tests or don't have the equipment please, tell us.
Later M Blez.

Subject: Fuel injection reliability on '81

I am making an offer on an '81 Imperial with only 56,000 miles on it.

It still has original everything including fuel injection system.

What has to be changed out to convert to a carb?

What is the source of the change out parts? Which model cars can I use for the
parts sources?

What is the reliability of the original fuel injection system?

T. Hogan

Subject: Fuel injection reliability on '81

I have one that has 97K on it and I have owned it since 1983, It has given me
minimal problems through the years.

Subject: Fuel injection reliability on '81

I bought an '81 with 99K from my uncle. At 99K, it still had its FI system,
but it had become very unreliable (no hot starts, stalling, etc.). Anyway, I
decided to rebuild the top-end of the motor and convert to a 4 BBL carb. I
also used parts from a wrecked '82 that had been covered to a carb. Well, one
of the main parts used in the conversion is a little part that installs "in-
line" before the fuel line gets to the carb. It's like a waterwheel (I forget
the correct name of the part). It works by generating a voltage in relation to
the speed of the wheel. The computer compares this voltage to the vehicle
speed. From this calculation, you get your MPG, DE etc. Now for the bad news.
After installing and wiring the hole shebang as per the factory manual, I
learned that you must also change some electronic parts within the digital
dash. I decided to live without the mileage function for two reasons:

A. Couldn't get the right dash.

B. My dash still worked and I wasn't about to risk messing it up.

If you are willing to live without the mileage functions and the emissions
garbage, the conversion is actually pretty easy. It's best just to use a new
MAP electronic ign. kit, new carb and intake. It'll take about a full day and
should cost no more than $500.00 if you use all new parts. Just save all the
original parts in case you ever want to go back. Just ask me if you want some
more details, I might even be able to scan my "81 manual to show the wiring.
(I believe that export models did not receive FI and as such the carb.-style
wiring was even shown in the '81 manual).

Subject: Fuel injection reliability on '81

Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:21:39 -0600

Hello Tom,

To answer your questions, we have to know more about your knowledge of these
cars, the EFI system is not the car to learn on. There may be someone in this
country with a factory EFI to Carb conversion kit from Chrysler, (try
Hemmings), but if not, you will have a lot of retrofitting to do. The carb
system is that found on all Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth cars that came
equipped with a two barrel Carter; there were many of these built for several
years. To enable the fuel consumption rate, mpg and remaining fuel data to be
displayed in the instrument cluster, you'll need to get a special part that is
not available from Chrysler. If you don't have the Service Manuals for these
three years, you'll have to get a set.

The EFI system components were upgraded in the 80's and are very reliable.
There are several Injection System, (Hydraulic Support Plates), still avail
from Chrysler for close to $800, (I also have several of these assemblies, new
and rebuilt). A new computer will be a wise investment and they are currently
available.

In either event, if you are not familiar with this car, but are willing to
try, there are some good people in this organization that can help you; let us
know.

Bob Harris

Subject: Fuel injection reliability on '81

Conversion of '81:

I'm a good enough mechanic and will have a professional helping but not a
Chrysler dealer mechanic.

I am not concerned entirely about all dash computer functions such as gas
mileage but certainty need gas available and speedo etc.

Would like list of best cars that are candidates for major parts needed:

manifold carb fuel pump new "Lean Burn" control computer? etc.

I have been told that this conversion is done quite frequently but not as a
result of some Chrysler or 3rd party formal "kit."

Any specific info would be helpful

Thanks again!

Tim Hogan '81 with sunroof but not FS 56,000 miles Silver with red leather
interior stereo with rear am but no tape, good but not great condition (little
run at rocker panels in front of rear wheel wells)

Subject: '81 Fuel Infection/injection

Sent: 10/7/97 4:25 AM

From: THoganGOAT@aol.com

I'm making an offer on an clean '81 with only 56,000 miles on it.

All original. Including fuel injection system -- or is that fuel infection
system.

I've hear it isn't very reliable. No parts available, etc. I would appreciate
any help in putting together a cheap conversion to carb system.

What cars are part sources and what parts will need?

Anyone have quick info and experience?

Thanks in advance!

T. Hogan

Subject: 81 FI Attn: Tim Hogan

THoganGOAT@aol.com wrote:

Great news! I'll take all the specific details I can get if you would be good
enough to provide them.

Tim,

Are you specifically speaking to me, Chris (t3176@flash.net)? You see, I'm new
to the IML and I'm not sure if my posts are getting through. I would hate to
post a huge list of conversion steps only to find that no one saw them. If you
can hear me, I would first like you to tell me a few things.

1. What is your experience/ability? Have you ever done an intake/carb swap
before?

2. Do you have a Chrysler manual for your IMP? Can you get one or should I
scan a few pages?

3. Done much auto electric work? Trace wires etc.?

4. What is your budget?

5. Where do you live? (I ask this because in my area, Detroit MI, Chrysler
products are very common on the roads and in the scrap yards. Thus if you live
in Podunck, Oklahoma and haven't seen another V8 RWD Chrysler product since
the Oil shortage of '73, I would list some new parts (and good places to order
them from) instead of telling you to check the salvage yards).

Write back...

Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up

I had good responses from Dick Benjamin and Bob Harris.

My 81 is stalling about 3 times after start, but within the first 15 minutes.
The temperature where I was working on the car today exceeded 100 degrees so I
started with Bob's suggestion that I go back to basics and run the in tank
pump, by passing the Automatic Shut Down Valve. Guess what? IT STALLED ANYWAY.
What next Dick? Bob Harris, Your suggestions were up next. Does this finding
alter what you are suggesting? Anyone else have ideas? Thank all of you for
your guidance. I suddenly feel that I am dealing with something that can be
cornered and fixed.
Carl Baty San Diego Grad@cts.com

Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up

OK Carl;

I think I am the guilty party for the suggestion about bypassing the ASD. Even
though it did not make your problem go away, the fact that doing so had no
effect on the problem adds to our knowledge about the situation. Now we know
that failure of power supplied to the fuel pumps or the EFI/CCC system is NOT
the problem. You can put that whole category of investigation on the back
burner.

If the car stalls when it is just sitting there idling normally, with a good
strong steady idle, and then just dies on you, then restarts with no special
fiddling (please verify that this is indeed your symptom), I come around to a
suggestion Bob Harris made a while ago, namely a possible temperature induced
momentary failure in the distributor's pick up coil. I think we talked about
this possibility one time before. Did you replace the pickup coil at that
time?

Bob suggested that if the pickup coil is suspect, one could take a VOM and
measure continuity from one wire to the other of the 2 wire pickup coil
connector (it comes out of the side of the distributor, unplug it and connect
to the end which goes into the distributor), while heating the coil assembly
with a hair dryer.

When the coil is OK, you will see a quite low resistance (I forget the number
at the moment, but it would be no more than a few hundred ohms, probably much
less) and when the coil opens, you would see very large resistance, over
10,000 ohms for sure. This is an easy test to make, and can be done without
disturbing any of the settings. I am not absolutely sure this will always
identify a failing part, however, perhaps Bob can shed some light on how
foolproof this test is.

Personally, if I suspect this part, I just replace it with a new one, since
they are cheap and relatively easy to change, see procedure below.

They are available from NAPA, and possibly other parts sources. You need to
remove the reluctor magnet to get at the pickup coil to replace it (it comes
only as a complete assembly, already attached to the "breaker" plate). I think
it is a good idea to replace both pieces at the same time (pickup coil and
magnet), since they are cheap, and you might damage the old magnet getting it
off.

If you decide to replace these parts yourself, be advised that you will have
less trouble in the long run if you pull the distributor to work on it. There
is only the one 2 wire coil connector to deal with (after you get the rotor
and cap out of your way), but of course you will have to be careful to
reinstall the distributor and rotor in the same position that it was in when
you removed it, and make sure no one bumps the engine over while it is out, or
else you will have to go to plan B to find #1's TDC point. Then you will have
to reset the timing (12BTC at idle).

Be very cautious when pulling the magnet off the end of the shaft, if you put
any more than a few pounds force on it, you can easily damage the bottom
thrust washer, which is pretty feeble. It would be best to hold the shaft
itself rather than the distributor body to pull the magnet; this is difficult
without removing the distributor.

Even if you do not disturb the distributor, you will also need to set the gap
from the tips of the 8 finned rotating magnet to the pole piece of the pickup
coil to .006 ", which will take a non-magnetic feeler gauge. This will be hard
to come by, I use a piece of .005" shim stock (brass) and set the gap a little
loose.

I'd like to hear what Bob has to suggest on this problem too, he has a world
of experience with these cars and their teething problems, and I gather this
was not unheard of even when the cars were new. I'll be quiet until I hear
more.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up

From: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 11:18 PM

OK Carl, I think I am the guilty party for the suggestion about bypassing the
ASD.

Even though it did not make your problem go away, the fact that doing so had
no effect on the problem adds to our knowledge about the situation. Now we
know that failure of power supplied to the fuel pumps or the EFI/CCC system is
NOT the problem. You can put that whole category of investigation on the back
burner.

If the car stalls when it is just sitting there idling normally, with a good
strong steady idle, and then just dies on you, then restarts with no special
fiddling (please verify that this is indeed your symptom), I come around to a
suggestion Bob Harris made a while ago, namely a possible temperature induced
momentary failure in the distributor's pick up coil. I think we talked about
this possibility one time before.

Did you replace the pickup coil at that time? Bob suggested that if the pickup
coil is suspect, one could take a VOM and measure continuity from one wire to
the other of the 2 wire pickup coil connector (it comes out of the side of the
distributor, unplug it and connect to the end which goes into the
distributor), while heating the coil assembly with a hair dryer.

When the coil is OK, you will see a quite low resistance (I forget the number
at the moment, but it would be no more than a few hundred ohms, probably much
less) and when the coil opens, you would see very large resistance, over
10,000 ohms for sure.

This is an easy test to make, and can be done without disturbing any of the
settings. I am not absolutely sure this will always identify a failing part,
however, perhaps Bob can shed some light on how foolproof this test is.

Hello again - Carl and Ben,

First I must apologize for the sloppy composition of the text that I sent Carl
in response to his needs, I left things out and assumed that he could read
between the lines; I was in a hurry.

I did not mention the Harris Pick-Up Coil test since Carl’s' was a Cold
Driveability problem. The Pick-Up coils would be prone to failure at any time.

My experiences tell me that this problem was due to a large number of these
things that were defective when manufactured, then being installed early in
the 81 production. There were many complaints - there are lots of "Starts But
Stalls" conditions in the Service manuals.

The problem was, if you shut-down for a while, the thing would restart and
talk about a perplexed mechanic wondering what he did or why there was a
complaint in the first place. I've also noted that Chrysler electronic
components that are available as rebuilt parts are advertised as "Temperature
Tested" at the factory!

This all goes to illustrate that it is mandatory to IML 81-83 owners who need
help to inform us just what their level of knowledge is. This problem
illustrates, more than any other malfunction, that the various components of
this system are interrelated such as when you have a No Fuel failure you must
realize that the ASD shut it down because there might be a No Spark Failure
and you're off looking in the wrong place.

Hence my Service Manual text on the Idle Stop Switch, temp and vacuum sensors
and faulty damper door operators. As I said in my first response, there are
more stalling diagnostics, but they are not necessarily on a cold engine.

Let us know what we need to help. Is your EFI system original, or has the
Support Plate been replaced with the up-graded parts? Keep it Goin....Bob
Harris

Personally, if I suspect this part, I just replace it with a new one, since
they are cheap and relatively easy to change, see procedure below. They are
available from NAPA, and possibly other parts sources.

You need to remove the reluctor magnet to get at the pickup coil to replace it
(it comes only as a complete assembly, already attached to the "breaker"
plate). I think it is a good idea to replace both pieces at the same time
(pickup coil and magnet), since they are cheap, and you might damage the old
magnet getting it off.

If you decide to replace these parts yourself, be advised that you will have
less trouble in the long run if you pull the distributor to work on it. There
is only the one 2 wire coil connector to deal with (after you get the rotor
and cap out of your way), but of course you will have to be careful to
reinstall the distributor and rotor in the same position that it was in when
you removed it, and make sure no one bumps the engine over while it is out, or
else you will have to go to plan B to find #1's TDC point.

Then you will have to reset the timing (12BTC at idle). Be very cautious when
pulling the magnet off the end of the shaft, if you put any more than a few
pounds force on it, you can easily damage the bottom thrust washer, which is
pretty feeble. It would be best to hold the shaft itself rather than the
distributor body to pull the magnet; this is difficult without removing the
distributor.

Even if you do not disturb the distributor, you will also need to set the gap
from the tips of the 8 finned rotating magnet to the pole piece of the pickup
coil to .006 ", which will take a non-magnetic feeler gauge.

This will be hard to come by, I use a piece of .005" shim stock (brass) and
set the gap a little loose. I’d like to hear what Bob has to suggest on this
problem too, he has a world of experience with these cars and their teething
problems, and I gather this was not unheard of even when the cars were new.

I'll be quiet until I hear more..Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm Up

Fellow list members.

The finding that the car stalls when by passing the ASD has left me at a loss.
In answer to Bob Harris and Dick Benjamin the distributor was replaced about 4
months ago. Given your more recent suggestions the pick up coil was replaced
two weeks ago, and yes, we removed the distributor in order to do this.

In approximately 1988 the then owner was a car dealer. He in a fit of
frustration replaced the Fuel Injection parts up to the (as he said) "the damn
hole the gas goes in." The CCC was replaced then at a cost of just under
$500.00 because he was a dealer himself. The Dealership that replaced all of
these parts went bankrupt the following month. He never got the car running
and put only 300 miles on it from then until I bought it a year ago. I suspect
we are dealing with lots of 1983 parts here.

Bob, can I somehow get a copy of the revisions in wiring to the 1981 shop
manual. Like Tony I have a high quality scanning capability.

Dick in answer to your questions it stalls at normal idle and restarts without
a problem. It stalls at 65 mph and starts again without difficulty. Then
stalls again.

Folks, given the outcome of the bypass test I have no ideal what to do next.
Your suggestions and guidance would be greatly appreciated. What can shut down
the car so quickly and so absolutely that is not in any way related to the
ASD?

Thanks Carl
Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm Up

From: Graduate, Ltd <grad@cts.com

Sent: Thursday, October 16, 1997 2:50 PM

Fellow list members.

The finding that the car stalls when by passing the ASD has left me at a loss.
In answer to Bob Harris and Dick Benjamin the distributor was replaced about 4
months ago.

Given your more recent suggestions the pick up coil was replaced two weeks
ago, and yes, we removed the distributor in order to do this. In approximately
1988 the then owner was a car dealer. He in a fit of frustration replaced the
Fuel Injection parts up to the (as he said) "the damn hole the gas goes in."

The CCC was replaced then at a cost of just under $500.00 because he was a
dealer himself. The Dealership that replaced all of these parts went bankrupt
the following month. He never got the car running and put only 300 miles on it
from then until I bought it a year ago. I suspect we are dealing with lots of
1983 parts here.

Bob, can I somehow get a copy of the revisions in wiring to the 1981 shop
manual. Like Tony I have a high quality scanning capability.

Dick in answer to your questions it stalls at normal idle and restarts without
a problem. It stalls at 65 mph and starts again without difficulty. Then
stalls again.

Folks, given the outcome of the bypass test I have no ideal what to do next.
Your suggestions and guidance would be greatly appreciated. What can shut down
the car so quickly and so absolutely that is not in any way related to the
ASD?

The Ignition Coil, for one thing, the ignition switch itself. The wiring
Diagrams for 83 differ from 81 only in the removal of one of the relays on the
Left wheel house and the Educator from the Oxygen Sensor to CCC connection 12.

Test the Pick-Up coil anyway. Check for loose or corroded connections, (I
think there are 85 of them on this car).

Most of all, be patient - these babies are not easy to diagnose; more later.
Please elaborate - is this definitely a Cold Drive problem, or after warm-up
too?

Bob Harris
Thanks Carl
Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm Up

Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:56:23 -0700

Carl;

You seem to have eliminated all the possibilities. Obviously, there is still
something wrong with the car. The only suggestion I have at this point is to
put it on an analyzer and watch what goes away when it dies. If it isn't one
of the things that has already been replaced, it must be something that has
not been replaced (how’s that for logic). Thus we are down to the wiring
harness, the sensors on the engine (see Bob Harris' tips on those) or perhaps
the left door and the rear bumper. Just to make sure, do you have a detailed
list of the "everything" that was replaced so far? Of course the suspicion is
that something was missed. I have no idea what that might be, but if there is
a list, at least we could eliminate those items. The alternative is to somehow
believe that the replacement parts are also somehow bad, not a happy thought.

I will not have any time for the next two weeks, but after that, I would
volunteer to put it on my analyzer and watch what happens. Of course, you
would have to leave it overnight to reproduce the failure, but we could
arrange that. If there is no one closer that you trust, I guess I'm elected. I
have to tell you though, I have one of these critters myself (one of my three)
that I can't figure out either, so I'm perhaps not your best bet. Randy Weir
said he found an "expert" up at Poway Dodge that said he could fix anything on
these cars, I certainly don't claim that!

I wish I could come up with a magic cure, I guess today’s not my day for
magic.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: ‘81-83 EFI support/conversion issues

Sent: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:07:09 -0700

Randy;

Thanks for the heads-up. You probably saw the posting I made to Carl Baty
their services. Once again, we are on our own. Chrysler Corp. support for
these cars is a blot on their reputation, for sure, but it doesn't seem to
have hurt them.

We have put together quite a body of knowledge about these cars in the last
year, but there are still some unexplained mysteries.

I have one I can't fix also, although I do not think it's problem is EFI
related. In my case, the prickly nature of the EFI/CCC system makes it very
difficult to track down anything affecting the quality of operation of the
engine, even if the problem is totally unrelated to the system.

I think it is time for me to confess an error of major proportions, and to
retract something I have said repeatedly over the last year: I have stated
that the carburetor conversion kit offered by Chrysler was a poor choice, that
the converted cars ran poorly, got worse mileage and much poorer driveability
and performance in general.

During our recent CHVA old car tour to Grand Canyon and environs, I became re-
acquainted with an old friend who I had not seen for about 5 years. I knew he
had bought a new '81, and maintained it in superb condition all the years
since. He is not a mechanic, and began to feel he was in a dangerous situation
with the car when his local dealer told him about the lack of factory support
for the car, and the availability of the conversion kit. Although his car was
still running perfectly, and had never given trouble, he was talked into
converting it about 4 years ago. He claims that the car runs just as well,
with no difference in any parameter that he can detect!

I am not about to accept one anecdote as proof of anything, but his remarks
stimulated me to drag out of the barn the car I bought in 1992 and never drove
because it had the conversion kit on it and ran very poorly, was hard to
start, impossible to adjust electrically assisted choke, none of the dash
functions that depend on the fuel flowmeter were working, etc.

I decided to give the car the benefit of the doubt: I rebuilt the carburetor
(float was stuck open), replaced the plugs (the converted cars use a colder
plug, RN12YC), and DISCOVERED THAT MOST OF THE VACUUM HOSES WERE SCREWED UP!

Well, as you've already guessed, the car is MUCH better now. It really starts
and runs almost as flawlessly as an EFI car, and does seem to pull as well at
least at low speeds. (The tires are poor, I have not been over 65 with it
yet). I have not tackled the dash problem yet, but I know that has nothing to
do with driveability, most probably the hang-on flowmeter is not working. I
have no idea of the economy, I expect it to be worse, but maybe not severely,
judging from the way it runs.

So this is me, stepping out to find some humble pie for breakfast. Sorry.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Subject: Help from Poway Dodge?

To: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Sent: Friday, October 17, 1997 7:46 AMMorning

Dick,
Poway Dodge turned out to be just a lot of hype and nothing more. I had my
Imperial towed back to Lemon Grove and is currently sitting in my driveway.
Will keep you posted. Randyrweir@mysurf.com

Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm Up

Sent: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:13:37 -0700

From: "Graduate, Ltd" <grad@cts.com

Yes list members, I am still here and my 81 is still stalling. Bob Harris, the
stalling only occurs in the first 15 minutes after a cold start. I am about to
put the car in a place I can work on it easily and go through every one of
those 85 ground connections Dick Benjamin mentioned. Yes Dick please sign me
up for a visit to your analyst. I need it as much as the car. Maybe you could
find a local motel for me to stay at.

I had a short conversation with Ted Otcasek in Colorado yesterday. He
suggested that I had, in essence, built the stalling during the first 15
minutes of running from a cold start into the computer and that is why it
stalled when I by passed the shut off valve. Bob, Dick, is this possible? He
advised me to check the contacts on the 5 pin hood attaching to the shut off
valve. They were clean and making good contact.

This morning I started the car and ran it through 15 minutes. With the door
and window open and the hood up and the quiet of a Sunday morning, I could
hear the beginning of the stall. It happened the usual three times. I had my
foot on the gas and gave it a quick pump each time she started to fail. All
three stalls were avoided this way. I had the low pressure fuel gauge on and
it didn't flicker at all during these attempted stalls. It is a 20 PSI gauge
so if I had a fuel pressure drop, I would have seen it. Open to suggestions,
help, advice, prayer. Carl

Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm Up

Sent: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:16:33 -0700

Yes Dick please sign me up for a visit to your analyst.

Carl, the offer was to put your car on my analyzer. While my wife often
suggests I need an analyst to help me deal with my Imperial obsession, I do
not actually have one.

Maybe you could find a local motel for me to stay at.

Well, since we live only about 1 hour apart, I was assuming maybe you could
have someone help you drop it off here, then we could work on it together the
next morning. But there certainly are motels in Temecula, most of the major
chains are here, Best Western and Doublet and Motel 6 for sure, but there are
about 5 or 6 others. We live about 10 miles out of town, but it would not be a
problem to drop you off and pick you up.

I had a short conversation with Ted Otcasek in Colorado yesterday. He
suggested that I had, in essence, built the stalling during the first 15
minutes of running from a cold start into the computer and that is why it
stalled when I by passed the shut off valve. Bob, Dick, is this possible?

I assume he was thinking about the self calibration ability of the computer,
which modifies the program from the default settings after seeing what an
individual engine does on the original program. I do not think that it would
program itself to shut the engine fuel supply or ignition off, under any
circumstances, so I would say, this is very unlikely, although all things are
possible.

Have you gone through the automatic calibration procedure since the last time
the battery was disconnected? If not, its worth a try.

He advised me to check the contacts on the 5 pin hood attaching to the shut
off valve. They were clean and making good contact.

In our test with pins 2 and 3 jumped together, we completely eliminated this
device from consideration your stalling problem. This morning I started the
car and ran it through 15 minutes. With the door and window open and the hood
up and the quiet of a Sunday morning, I could hear the beginning of the stall.
It happened the usual three times. I had my foot on the gas and gave it a
quick pump each time she started to fail. All three stalls were avoided this
way.

Now this is new input, I did not realize you could stave off a stall by
pumping the accelerator. Hmmm, interesting.

I had the low pressure fuel gauge on and it didn't flicker at all during these
attempted stalls. It is a 20 PSI gauge so if I had a fuel pressure drop, I
would have seen it.

Where in the system have you installed this gauge? I assume it is outside the
HSA, so it would be looking only at the 13PSI or so from the tank.

This is pretty far upstream from the injection system. I would, however, be
interested in the action of the control fuel pump during one of these stalls
(or near stalls). No gauge is required, but an oscilloscope watching the fuel
control voltage would be illuminating (no pun intended)

Open to suggestions, help, advice, prayer. Carl

Well, I can offer the first 3, anyway.

Subject: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm Up

Sent: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:19:21 -0400

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Carl, I have been reading bits and pieces of your conversations with Dick
about your stalling problem w/ your '81. Since your stalling is happening
during the warm up the EFI is operating in the open loop mode until the oxygen
sensor reaches it operating temp.. In the open loop mode the EFI circuit is
dependent on the programming of the electronic memory of the input sensors..

I would first check the whole operation of your heated air mixing assembly
then check your EFI coolant sensor to see what your cold and hot resistance
readings are. If these are fine I would set my sights on the CCC even if it's
new because this is where the memory is for the open loop operation and I have
gotten several bad brand new CCCs over the years and when I return they back
to the dealer guess where they go.

That's right they go right back into the system so the next guy like you can
drive himself nuts thinking every thing is fine because it's new. How do I
know they go back into the system because I have marked the bad ones and have
gotten them back.

Also, try Ted’s idea of recalibrating the CCC first this will correct the
programming of the electronic memory of the EFI to the right air fuel ratio in
the open loop mode if every thing is working right..... Later M. Blez

Subject: 81-83 web-pages are on the way!

Sent: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:06:07 -0400 (EDT)

From: ImperialML@aol.com

First let me tell you how much I admire your site. It is one of the best on
automotive clubs.

I have visited before, but now that I have an Imperial, I decided to join the
mailing list. As my registration says I purchased a 1981 Imperial, that has
seen better days, but at least I have one, I will be looking for another
probably in the spring.

Perhaps you could help me. I am looking for technical info on the 81-83
coupes, and all links listed on the home page are dead ends, or simply there
is no info.

Any help you can give on acquiring info on these cars is certainly
appreciated.

David McIntire

Subject: 81 Imperial Condition

From: "Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:26:57 -0800

Randy:

I'm glad you are getting some assistance with your '81. Carl certainly has
been down the road with these cars many times, he know what he is doing for
sure.

One question: did you ever do my "tablespoon of fuel down the center screw of
the air cleaner" trick to get it to start?

If not, please try this before you go to all the trouble and dangerous effort
of pulling it into the garage with come-alongs etc. Even though you are
certain that fuel is getting to the EFI system, this does not necessarily mean
it is getting to the intake manifold in sufficient quantity to start a car
which has not run in a while. I speak from experience here. Just try it. It is
hazard free (just pour an oz or so of gas into the depression in the center of
the air cleaner, loosen the wingnut to allow the fuel to drain down, retighten
the wing nut, then jump in and start her up.) If this doesn't work, 1. I'll be
amazed, and

2. You've got ignition problems, start checking the connections to the coil,
ballast resistor, and distributor pickup coil. Use a VOM and check from the
appropriate terminals in the harness (I think you have a manual, right?) to
the various ignition components.

Your problem should not be hard to track down since the car won't run at all.
It has to be either fuel, spark, compression or timing. Lets attack it in that
order and get this thing running for you.

Subject: 81 Imperial Condition

From: Randall Weir <rweir@mysurf.com

Sent: Sunday, October 26, 1997 7:27 PM

My Multiple Sclerosis is in remission enough that Carl came over today and
helped run a diagnostic on my Imperial. So far this is what we found:

1. It's getting fuel

2. Jumpering between terminals 2 and 3 of the power module plug causes the
fuel pump to start.

3. We cleaned the ground connections on the power module (really needed it)
without any affect one way or another

4. Determined I need to pull the starter/solenoid and take a look at it. It
didn't have that characteristic "Mopar" whine to it. We got to come up with a
way of getting the car up into my garage. It's sitting on my inclined
driveway. I think I can use my truck as an "anchor" and use a comealong to get
it most of the way up; at least to where a friend or two of mine can push it
into the garage. Once there I can put it up on truck stands and get under it
to do the starter. Will keep you posted.

Randyrweir@mysurf.com

Subject: '81 EFI

From: "Chip Hood" <Chip.H@worldnet.att.net

Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:18:07 -0500

I have been following with great interest the problem that Carl Baty has been
having with his '81 Imperial to see if it might be related to one of two
problems I am having with my '81. If anyone knows of the cause or has any
suggestions toward the following, it would be greatly appreciated.

The first problems is the car suffers from a very erratic idle if the car has
been idling for some time. The car has the EFI intact and has 46K miles. Under
normal driving, traffic lights and stop signs do not seem to cause a problem.
But if I'm in heavy stop and go traffic or the car has been sitting idling for
some time (2 minutes plus) the engine will almost stall, then rev high, then
smooth out for a while. It will continue doing this at erratic intervals. This
happens regardless of whether the car is in gear or in neutral or park. The
car runs fine otherwise. The second problem is a very loud fuel pump. The
radio or road noise will drown it out, but if you are sitting in the back seat
it is very annoying. The car was a late '81 so it has the '82 fuel tank and
pump setup.

Though I haven't completely ruled it out, I though I might have a fuel pump
going bad causing both of my problems. But most people I have talked with say
that when a pump goes out, it goes out completely. So I'm stumped. Any
suggestions?

Chip & Christopher : '78 New Yorker Brougham/'81 Imperial

--
Subject: '81 EFI

Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:21:57 -0800

From: "Graduate, Ltd" <grad@cts.com

Chip -

I am taking a couple of days off from working on my car. I will be sharing
information as I proceed with search the causes Of the problems I face
(stalling during warm up period). I have noticed RPM swings at idle after I
have cut and restored power to the computer and before I have recalibrated the
computer. After the recalibration the swings start diminishing in range and a
couple of driving days later they are gone. Good luck, Carl Baty Grad@cts.com

Chip Hood wrote:

I have been following with great interest the problem that Carl Baty has been
having with his '81 Imperial to see if it might be related to one of two
problems I am having with my '81. If anyone knows of the cause or has any
suggestions toward the following, it would be greatly appreciated.

The first problems is the car suffers from a very erratic idle if the car has
been idling for some time. The car has the EFI intact and has 46K miles. Under
normal driving, traffic lights and stop signs do not seem to cause a problem.
But if I'm in heavy stop and go traffic or the car has been sitting idling for
some time (2 minutes plus) the engine will almost stall, then rev high, then
smooth out for a while. It will continue doing this at erratic intervals. This
happens regardless of whether the car is in gear or in neutral or park. The
car runs fine otherwise.

The second problem is a very loud fuel pump. The radio or road noise will
drown it out, but if you are sitting in the back seat it is very annoying. The
car was a late '81 so it has the '82 fuel tank and pump setup. Though I
haven't completely ruled it out, I though I might have a fuel pump going bad
causing both of my problems. But most people I have talked with say that when
a pump goes out, it goes out completely.

So I'm stumped. Any suggestions?

Chip & Christopher: '78 New Yorker Brougham/'81 Imperial

Subject: 81-83 Fuel Injection on line library

Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:47 -0800

From: "Graduate, Ltd" <grad@cts.com

Tony where are you in the process of getting the discussions about the 81-83
Fuel Injection together so we can access it. Can I help? Carl Baty 569-5995

Subject: '81 EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:03:02 -0800

Chip;

Your problem with the erratic idle is not going to be easy to track down. I
think the first thing to do is to replace the O2 sensor, since this only
happens at idle, and only when the car is thoroughly warm. Another possibility
is the EGR valve or its controls, but the O2 sensor is so cheap and easy to
change, (and is certainly due if it is still the original) that I would tackle
that possibility first. If that does not cure the idle problem, then we will
disconnect and plug the vacuum line that goes to the EGR valve to see if that
affects the problem. Lets take those first steps and see where they lead us.

On the noisy fuel pump; these cars all have a noticeable whine from the fuel
pump, which is worse in the back seat. When the car has accumulated many
miles, or if it has often been driven with a low fuel tank (below about 7
gallons in it), the bearings in the pump get hot and wear, and begin to get
much more noisy.

Your car does not appear to have enough usage on it to have worn out the pump,
if the odometer is the original and does not show the asterisk. It is
possible, though, that your fuel pump is failing for some other reason.

I have one '81 which has high mileage (probably over 200,000) and a very noisy
pump, but the noise only occurs on very hot days, (which in Temecula
unfortunately occur quite often). It has the worn bearing syndrome, and I am
about to convert it to an externally mounted pump, which I did successfully to
another of my '81's a few years ago after the original pump split its housing.
Unfortunately, after the conversion (to a Mustang 5.0 Ltr's pump), I can still
hear the whine, even though I rubber mounted the new pump and tried to isolate
it acoustically as best I could.

I am quite certain your two problems are unrelated, by the way.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

From: Chip Hood <Chip.H@worldnet.att.net

The first problems is the car suffers from a very erratic idle if the car has
been idling for some time. The car has the EFI intact and has 46K The second
problem is a very loud fuel pump. I might have a fuel pump going bad causing
both of my problems. -
Subject: 81 Fuel Injection

Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:55:06 -0800

From: "Graduate, Ltd" <grad@cts.com

I found Randy Weir through messages on the web. Randy has an 81 which is
identical to mine and he lives about 30 minutes away. As soon as Randy gets
his starter to stay engaged we can proceed with some part switching, back and
forth. Are there any potential problems we might run into doing this kind of
diagnosis? Dick Benjamin, you know something of both cars. Can you place any
priority on parts to start test swapping.

I hope that this kind of buddy system can result in both new knowledge for
everyone with FI. Carl Baty
--
Subject: 81 EFI Imperial - erratic Idle

From: "Robert J. Harris" <HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net

Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:20:14 -0600

Chip, sounds like a problem we've all had at one time or other. Does your car
have the upgraded EFI equipment? This is readily identified by the potting
compound on the exposed face of the Power Module and the Fuel Flow Meter; the
new stuff is clear with large granules and won't "melt."

If you are not having a stalling problem you might consider these tips:

Disconnect the Oxygen Sensor at the In-line connector, the engine will run at
a constant speed but maybe faster. If aggressive "Bracketing" still occurs
with this removed, then remove and cap all of the vacuum nipples on the tree
behind the Throttle Plate.

If the engine then smoothes out, you can reconnect the Oxygen Sensor and have
a normal, mild "Bracketing."

Bracketing is defined as the rise and fall of idle speed as the Oxygen Sensor
constantly adjusts the Fuel/Air mixture via the computer, most noticeable at
idle. If okay now, you probably have a vacuum leak. If not okay, test the
Oxygen Sensor with the engine running by grasping the male end of the
connector between your right thumb and index fingers.

Alternately touch each battery post with your left hand fingers and see a rise
or fall in idle speed. If you do, the Computer is okay, If you don't, it
isn't. If okay, reconnect each vacuum circuit and test for the culprit.

In any event, the idle speed must be correct or you may experience occasional
stalling. For all three years, try 580 RPM, in Drive, without AC ON, raise it
to no more the 650 RPM. Higher idle speed with a warm engine aggravates the
clunk in the drive line in reverse due to the high rear servo apply pressure.

If your In-Tank fuel pump is noisy, perhaps whining, it may have suffered a
low fuel event and was damaged. These pumps must remain submerged in gasoline
to stay alive.

If the pump is noisy, you may find a replacement at Auto Zone under their part
number E-8094 or Western Auto, if still open, under their part number EP-7101
or P-27; Chrysler no longer has these pumps available.

I suspect that these pumps are universal applications. the important thing is
that they operate in the necessary pressure range as did the original. This
car had a low pressure pump in the tank, and a high pressure pump in the
Support Plate. Hope this is of some assistance.

Bob Harris.

Subject: 81 Fuel Injection

From: "Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@alphainfo.com

Sent: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:54:25 -0800

Carl and Randy;

I think the first thing to do is to localize the problem to lack of which:
either fuel or spark. Since they are interrelated on an EFI car in ways that
are not obvious, I think very strongly the thing to do is the gas down the air
cleaner bit that I e-mailed to Randy a week or so ago. When we know the
results of that, we'll know which way to jump next.

With the problems we have had on the IML of some messages not getting through,
I wonder now whether my previous posts on this subject were received by Randy.

I did not realize that his starter won't stay engaged. I'd like more
information on this. I was under the assumption that it sounded unusual, but
was not aware that it wasn't cranking the engine. If the engine is balking and
kicking back when cranking, we've got a totally different situation here,
which may involve hydrostatic lock and can be VERY DANGEROUS to deal with. I
think we better understand this situation first, or someone may be badly hurt,
not to mention damage to the engine.

Once we get beyond that hurdle, I would like to confirm that the car will not
run at all, under any conditions. That is how I remember his car, but it is
getting close to a year since he first described the problems, and there has
been a lot of water over my dam since then.

I am here just about 100% of the time, and if you guys want to consult on the
phone, please call me anytime from 8AM to 10PM PST at 909 676 2232.

Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com

is identical to mine and he lives about 30 minutes away. As soon as Randy gets
his starter to stay engaged we can proceed with some part switching, back and
forth. Are there any potential problems we might run into doing this kind of
diagnosis? Dick Benjamin, you know something of both cars. Can you place any
priority on parts to start test swapping.
Subject: Randy 81 FI

Sent: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:21:32 -0800

From: Carl Baty <grad@cts.com

Randy - I am ready to start diagnosis through part swapping so both of our 81s
with fuel injection run better and longer. Waiting to hear from you.

Carl Baty

Subject: How could this happen? 81 in Vegas

My Imperial has been sitting in the garage for 5 months now. I have been
starting it on a weekly basis. Now it won't start. I do not here the fuel pump
when I turn the key. Is there a fuse or something that could be doing this?
Where can I look? What can I do?

Stunning 81 in Vegas

Subject: How could this happen? 81 in Vegas

From: RonSmithAZ <RonSmithAZ@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:12:57 EST

Check the manual as to the location of a circuit breaker and also the roll-
over safety switch. Is the battery fully charged? When you turn on the
ignition, does everything else come to life?I should mention that auto's with
electric fuel pumps in the tank wiil have the C/Breakers and Roll-over safety
switches in the system.Good Luck!

Subject: How could this happen? 81 in Vegas

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:59:19 -0800

Tony;

A simple thing to do first, is to take a tablespoon of gas and place it in the
center of the air cleaner with the wing nut loosened, this will allow the gas
to drip down into the throttle body. Right after you do this, start the car,
it should start right up. The question is, will it keep running, or will it
die right away? This will tell us what sort of problem has occurred.

If it dies again right away, the problem is that the fuel pumps are not
running for some reason, which you already suspect, but let's confirm it.

If it does not start, even for a moment, when you do this, there is a more
serious problem.

The device that runs the fuel pumps momentarily when you first turn the key,
and after that, provides power to the whole EFI/CCC system, is the module on
the right front inner fender with a 5 wire plug screwed into it. This is the
infamous ASDM, or automatic Shutdown Module. It must be securely grounded to
operate. It relies on a metal to metal contact through its mounting screws,
AND on the good connections between the inner fender and the main structure of
the body.

This is a poor design, and most of these cars have had an additional wire
added from one of the mounting screws to somewhere on the engine which is
known to be a good ground. Most people have been using the alternator housing
or one of its brackets.

There is also a good grounding point at the rear of the right head, where you
will see 3 or 4 other ground wires and braids connected. If your car does not
have this wire, try at least a temporary clip lead from the ASDM mounting
flange to the alternator case to see if that cures your problem. Since the
right fender area of your car is damaged, the original ground may have lost
its integrity.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: How could this happen? 81 in Vegas

Sent: Monday, December 22, 1997 9:49 PM

My Imperial has been sitting in the garage for 5 months now. I have been
starting it on a weekly basis. Now it won't start. I do not here the fuel pump
when I turn the key. Is there a fuse or something that could be doing this?
Where can I look? What can I do?
Stunning 81 in Vegas

Subject: How could this happen? 81 in Vegas

From: Hhrp <Hhrp@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:03:43 EST

This happened with my Mazda Pick-Up. had lights, battery was okay, but nothing
when I turned the key--no click, nada. Turned out I needed a new alternator as
starter checked out Okay. Don't know if this helps in your situation but it
sure was an unusual occurrence for me.

Subject: '82 EFI Rough-Idle

From: Eddenbud (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:28:44 EST

I've owned my '81 with a carb. conversion (Holley 4-barrel) for many years,
but I have only had the '82 since July '97. It has the original Electronic
Fuel Injection system, and I am not especially familiar with working on it,
though I have read through the '81 service manual on the system, including the
nightmarishly long troubleshooting charts.

The motor has an unusual rough-idle problem. Though I live in Florida, I keep
the '82 in Cincinnati, where, of course it is driven in colder weather than my
'81 and I are used to here in Orlando. Oddly, the '82 (from Minneapolis) seems
to really like the cold weather! When the motor is cold and the ambient
temperature is low, it runs great. However when the motor warms up, it begins
to idle unevenly. When the weather is warm, it will even repeatedly stall.

I've done a complete tune-up (all the filters, plugs, wires, etc.) I also
found a vacuum leak in the brake-booster line, and changing the lines and
brake booster filter assembly helped a lot. I've also changed the oxygen
sensor (just because it's easy to get to and I needed an easy task that day
(!!) and it looked like it might have even been the original (115,000 miles)
one. Yet the rough idle/warm weather stall persists.

I'm guessing perhaps the airflow sensor. Does anyone have any ideas. Would I
need to replace the sensor, or perhaps just clean it somehow??

ALSO, here's a really odd one: I was driving on I-75 the other night with the
cruise control engaged. I tapped the accel. lever to speed up a bit
(coincidental or related, I'm not sure) when the entire instrument panel
FROZE. It was very strange--the speed was stuck at 56, the clock stopped where
it was, the odometer stopped counting--Had I driven into the Twilight Zone?!
I've never seen this in my '81 nor heard of any other incidents like this.

When safely off of the interstate, I stopped the car, turned off the ignition,
waited a moment, restarted the car, and all was back to normal!! Has anyone
else experienced this freakishness? (I don't really know if that's a word, but
I think it fits!)

I'd appreciate anyone's input on these matters.

Thanks,

ED F

Subject: '82 EFI Rough-Idle

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:09:27 -0800

Ed;

I doubt this would be related to the air flow sensor. There is no way to clean
it that I am aware of, anyway. It is best left alone, it is very delicate.

I would suspect the EGR valve is sticking open, either due to carbon build up
or because of some failure in the EGR control system. To eliminate the latter,
just pull the actuating vacuum line off the EGR valve (it is under the
throttle position sensor at the passenger side center of the intake manifold,
there is just one vacuum line going to it.) Pull the line off and plug it with
a golf tee or equivalent, the see if you notice any difference in
driveability. If the problem is gone, then we have to do some more
investigating, but lets take it in steps, these cars are quite complex, and if
too many things are disturbed at once, we may never figure it all out.

Another thing to check, is to pull the PCV valve out of the driver's side
valve cover, and make sure it is pulling a vacuum, and that it will rattle
when shaken. If no rattle, replace it or soak it to clean it in lacquer
thinner. If no vacuum, your throttle plate is gunked up with carbon or the
hose has a problem.

A couple of questions: What kind of fuel mileage is it getting at, say a
steady 65 MPH? (assuming your readout is working), or if not what does it
average?

How did the plugs look when you pulled them out. Did you use AL945 plugs, and
gap them at .038? If not, how close did you come?

Your mystery with the freeze-up of the display sounds to me like something
derailed the program in the display computer. When you shut down and
restarted, you basically did a reset. This is not a problem I have ever
experienced, but it does not sound serious to me.

Dick Benjamin

temperature is low, it runs great. However when the motor warms up, it begins
to idle unevenly. When the weather is warm, it will even repeatedly stall.
I’ve done a complete tune-up (all the filters, plugs, wires, etc.) miles) one.
Yet the rough idle/warm weather stall persists. I’m guessing perhaps the
airflow sensor. Does anyone have any ideas. Would I need to replace the
sensor, or perhaps just clean it somehow??

when the entire instrument panel FROZE. It was very strange--turned off the
ignition, waited a moment, restarted the car, and all was back to normal!!
Subject: '82 EFI Rough-Idle

From: Stude1966 <Stude1966@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:49:52 EST

My 81 has had the dash problem since almost new and it has never been
isolated, but it also happens very infrequently. But it has at times in the
last 10 years gone off for days at a time. And what really is amazing is that
it adjusts the mileage etc. when it comes back on.

Subject: Starter status

From: Randall Weir <rweir@mysurf.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:52 PM

Hi Dick,

Just a FYI item. Got the starter out (with the help of a friend) and got it
tested. Worked fine on the test stand. The shaft the Bendix gear slides on is
dry so I'm going to lightly lube it with a dry lithium grease before
reinstalling. Hopefully my friend will be here sometime this week, or weekend,
to put it back in. Will keep you posted.
Randy rweir@mysurf.com
Subject: '82 EFI Rough-Idle

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:51:49 -0800

Well, this supports the idea that it is only the display driver that is
getting derailed. The actual accumulation of information in the memory
continues, you just cant monitor it.

Dick Benjamin

And what really is amazing is that it adjusts the mileage etc. when it comes
back on.

Subject: '82 EFI Rough-Idle

From: Eddenbud (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:12:45 EST

Dick,

Thanks for all of your input in regards to my 82's rough-idle problem.

Until you mentioned it, I'd forgotten how my old Cordoba (with the 318) had a
similar rough-idle/stalling problem until I replaced the EGR which quickly
remedied it. I'll certainly give that some attention!

I replaced the PCV with a new one, and the vacuum line seemed to be pulling OK
as I recall. That was several months ago, but I'll check it again.

The car actually gets very good highway mileage - at 65 mph, about 22 mpg.
Around town, it gets only about 15 mpg.

I replaced the plugs with Champion RN12Y's and gapped them to .035 inches. I
have an old Technical Service Bulletin (08-14-81) which applies to all 1981
Chryslers with the 318 and all 1982's with EFI that advises to set the plug
gap to .035. Apparently the original spec. was .048, which was too great and
caused drivability problems.

What do you suggest?

Thanks again,

ED F

Subject: '82 EFI Rough-Idle(Mystery Dash)

From: Eddenbud (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:21:56 EST

In a message dated 98-01-14 06:18:18 EST, you write:

My 81 has had the dash problem since almost new and it has never been
isolated, but it also happens very infrequently. But it has at times in the
last 10 years gone off for days at a time. And what really is amazing is that
it adjusts the mileage etc. when it comes back on.

That is peculiar! It sounds different than what my '82 did, though. In my
case, the dash displays remained illuminated, but they were absolutely frozen.
The speed, odometer mileage, even the clock had all frozen, as if caught in a
time warp!!

It was about ten minutes before I was off of the highway and was able to
shutdown and restart the car. When I did so, all functions returned to normal.
However, the odometer still indicated what was shown when the freeze- up
occurred and the clock had to be "caught-up" as it was now ten minutes behind.
Those 5 or 6 miles and ten minutes had not existed, as far as my car was
concerned!

ED F

Subject: '82 EFI Rough-Idle

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:08:18 -0800

OK, Ed, I agree with everything you did except the plug selection. I really
doubt it will have a major effect, but they did specify a special plug for the
EFI cars only, the number was 68 ER as I recall, it will be on a sticker under
the hood. I had trouble locating that number, but I found by comparing specs
that the Autolite 945 is very close in dimensions, heat range and extended tip
design. I am going from memory here, but I think the closest Champion number
was RN13LYC. The plug you are using has a more conventional tip design, and is
also one step cooler, so the next time you change plugs, I would go to the
closer design.

Let me know how you make out with the EGR and PCV investigations. Your mileage
sounds pretty decent, maybe a little low for city driving, but conditions are
probably much worse than I am used to here in the boonies. By the way, how
does that compare with the carbureted car? Also, how does the power compare?

Dick Benjamin

The car actually gets very good highway mileage-- at 65 mph, about 22 mpg.
Around town, it gets only about 15 mpg. I replaced the plugs with Champion
RN12Y's and gapped them to .035 inches. I have an old Technical Service
Bulletin (08-14-81) which applies to all 1981 Chryslers with the 318 and all
1982's with EFI that advises to set the plug gap to .035. Apparently the
original spec. was .048, which was too great and caused drivability problems.
ED F

Subject: Rough Idle Revisited Again!

From: Eddenbud (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:12:05 EST

In a message dated 98-01-15 02:31:21 EST, you write:

Let me know how you make out with the EGR and PCV investigations. Your mileage
sounds pretty decent, maybe a little low for city driving, but conditions are
probably much worse than I am used to here in the boonies. By the way, how
does that compare with the carbureted car? Also, how does the power compare?

Dick, I'll certainly let you know how things work out with the EGR. I may have
to wait until warmer weather sets in in Cincinnati before I get to it!!

My '81, with the Holley 4-barrel, does not seem to have quite the power as the
'82 with EFI. The '81 does not get very good mileage with the carburetor,
despite all the tweaking my mechanic and I have attempted, only about 14 mpg.
On the highway, it might only go up a bit to 15 or 15.5 mpg.

ED F

Subject: Randy Weir's '81 EFI problems

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:01:18 -0800

OK, Randy, good news (if it now cranks, that is)

Don't forget the first step, now. Put a tablespoon of gas down the Air Cleaner
center bolt and try to start it, before you disconnect anything, just to see
if it's a fuel problem.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: Ring gear

From: randall weir <rweir@mysurf.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:10 AM

Dick, The ring gear looks good. The starter is in. Carl will be helping me.
Randy

Subject: EFI problems, '81

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:35:22 -0800

OK, now we're getting somewhere. If I understand correctly, it fires when you
add a teaspoon of gas, but does not fire when you don't. Somehow, I missed
this essential information. I don't care how it runs when it fires, I just
want to demonstrate that the problem is or is not lack of fuel. Now it appears
we have demonstrated that it is lack of fuel. Now the next step is to see if
the ASDM is supplying 12 volts to the EFI system when you are cranking. Do you
have a test light, or a VOM?

Dick Benjamin

Dick, I used just a tablespoon this time. Got in and cranked it until it
dropped out. After a few more times it fired, albeit rough. The longest it
stayed running was mere seconds.

Randy

Subject: Fwd: 81-83 Imperial Questions

From: "Dick Benjamin"

Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:23:59 -0800

Walter;

The '81-'83 cars are delightful drivers, with styling and features that rival
much newer cars.

The standard engine was a normal 318 (5.2L) with a computer controlled EFI
system and combustion control computer, which gave excellent performance and
economy, at the expense of difficult maintenance and parts availability if
problems do occur, especially with poorly trained mechanics.

If this car has the factory conversion to carburetor, it will be the same in
characteristics and serviceability as any other carbureted early 80's Chrysler
product. It will still have a computer controlled ignition system, dash board,
and mixture control on the carburetor, the same as any other car from that
era. It should be no more and no less trouble to maintain.

If the conversion was not done at a dealership with factory supplied parts,
you are going to need more information about the car, since the manuals will
not cover it. If you'd like to take a look at the fuel system and see if it is
a 2 barrel carburetor, and if so what number, and also check the numbers on
the computer module on the air cleaner, we can probably tell you if it is the
authorized conversion.

Another thing to note is whether or not the fuel MPG readout is functional,
and all other dash features seem to work OK. For instance, check the average
MPG readout to see if it is reasonable. With a carburetor I would expect the
long term average to be about 14 -15 MPG.

If the conversion is not the authorized one, I think you may have trouble
passing the smog inspection (I know you would not pass in California) and you
will have trouble getting the car serviced unless you have a really savvy
mechanic.

Dick Benjamin

From: Walter <mediaink@mindspring.comI

was thrilled to find so much information about the Imperial on your home page
and links--and to find so many proud owners. I am contemplating the purchase
of a 1981 and this page has increased my enthusiasm. I am worried about thinks
like on-board computers and the like, that is, the serviceability of the car
as I am not a mechanic and would have to pay to have everything done. Also,
the car I am considering has had the standard fuel-injected engine replaced by
a regular 318 V8.

Subject: More 81-83 Imperial Questions

From: "Dick Benjamin" <
Sent: Monday, February 02, 1998 10:59 AM

If he has indeed switched the engine, I would have to ask why. There is no
difference, the uniqueness of the original setup only involves the intake
manifold and fuel pump, the rest is all standard 318. There is no reason to be
afraid of this car if the engine is from a car which is standard for some car,
so long as you know what that car is so you can get service work performed and
order parts. The computers are not as deeply involved in engine management as
in cars of the late 90's, but do control the ignition functions and the dash
display. This is not usually a problem, and if you can tell the mechanic to
"play like" it is, for example, an '84 Fifth Avenue, there should not be a
reason to worry about it, assuming your state's smog police are not going to
black ball the car because it is not an approved conversion. In California,
this would be the death knell for the car, because getting it certified would
cost way more than the $1000 to $1500 the car is worth, you'll have to check
with your local authorities to see what is involved there (maybe nothing).

Dick Benjamin

- Regardless, it's not a factory authorized conversion. horrific ignition
problems on a car with this kind of electronics and computer control? Grady
Walter

Subject: Fwd: 81-83 Imperial Questions

From: Eddenbud@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 00:18:27 EST

Dear Grady,

I've owned my '81 for about four years and my '82 FS for about seven months.
My '81 has been converted (by the previous owner) to a non-Chrysler carb.
setup, a Holley 4-barrel, while my '82 has the original EFI system. So I'm
pretty familiar with the contrast between the two systems and peculiarities of
the cars.

As Dick Benjamin pointed out, if a car you're considering has been converted,
it's best if it's the Chrysler-designed and supplied conversion. This
conversion replaced A LOT of parts, including the gas tank, wiring harness,
manifold, etc., and it provided reliable performance AND all of the inputs to
the computer necessary for proper fuel calculations on the Information Center.
Non-Chrysler conversions may not; for example, my '81, with it's non-standard
conversion, does not have an input for fuel burn rate, and so always reads
99.9 MPG (I WISH!!!). Despite these shortcomings, the car does run very well.

I feel that the EFI system is very good too, although it can be very difficult
to properly diagnose problems, even to the experienced mechanic--You should
see the terrified reactions I've gotten from Chrysler mechanics when pulling
into the dealership with one of these cars!! Nonetheless, my '82 is generally
a pleasure to drive as well.

Whether you choose an EFI or converted model, you MUST get the complete
service manual set, including the service manual, engine performance manual,
and (if you can find it) service-bulletin manual. These will prove an
invaluable source in leading you and/or your mechanic through diagnostic
procedures.

Although both of my Imperials have very good reliability records, I would not
rely on one as my only source of transport; they're just not as reliable as a
brand new modern car, but how could they be? Since they can be finicky and
difficult to diagnose, you might be without wheels for a few days while you or
your mechanic tries to figure out what the problem is. On the other hand, I've
never had a sudden failure of one of these cars. They always give you signs of
an impending problem, and if you heed those warnings, you won't be left
stranded.

Here are some other things to watch for when car shopping: The '81's (at least
early- run '81's) were notorious for the deck lid rotting out as Chrysler did
not provide a proper drain hole (this was an early service bulletin), and the
lid would rust from the inside out. My '81 did this, and I was able to replace
it with a like-new one. On the other hand, my '82 shows no signs at all of
such a problem, as the drain hole problem had probably been corrected on the
line by that point.

If the car's been converted to carb., look carefully at how the fuel lines
have been routed. You could wind up with a fire if the lines are not properly
routed and secured.

As per my previous IML letters, the '81 search-tune radio is an atrocity in
engineering, and finding anyone who'll actually touch the thing to work on it
is about as easy as finding one that actually works! I'd suggest replacing it
with a modern stereo if you get a car with one of those, and hang on to the
radio for posterity!

The GOOD NEWS is these cars are really a pleasure to drive. I love driving
both of mine. They ride super quiet, soft and comfy, yet still handle better
than the whales of previous generations. And the styling is contemporary even
on today's roads with aerodynamic "bubble" cars everywhere you look. You will
draw admiring glances from any car enthusiast you pass, and you'll hear
countless words of praise.

Good luck in your search!!

ED F

Subject: Fwd: 81-83 Imperial Questions

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:30:36 -0800

Ed;

Thank you for joining the conversation with Grady Walter. I notice he is not a
member of the IML, so unless you CC'd him directly, he will not get your
posting. Probably you already know that.

I agree with everything you say, and I am especially interested in the drain
hole discussion. I was aware of the rust problem, but I was not aware of the
service note on the subject. It did not show up in the hyper expensive CD ROM
I bought which was supposed to have all the available factory information on
the '82. They do not cover the '81, but I didn't think there was that much
difference. Perhaps, if you have a copy of the bulletin, or could check for
us, you would let us know where and how the drain hole is drilled, it might
save the rest of us some grief.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: Fwd: 81-83 Imperial Questions

From: Eddenbud@aol.com

Sent: Monday, February 02, 1998 9:18 PM

Dear Grady,

I've owned my '81 for about four years and my '82 FS for about seven months.
My '81 has been converted (by the previous owner) to a non-Chrysler carb.
setup, a Holley 4-barrel, while my '82 has the original EFI system. So I'm
pretty familiar with the contrast between the two systems and peculiarities of
the cars.

As Dick Benjamin pointed out, if a car you're considering has been converted,
it's best if it's the Chrysler-designed and supplied conversion. This
conversion replaced A LOT of parts, including the gas tank, wiring harness,
manifold, etc., and it provided reliable performance AND all of the inputs to
the computer necessary for proper fuel calculations on the Information Center.

Non-Chrysler conversions may not; for example, my '81, with it's non-standard
conversion, does not have an input for fuel burn rate, and so always reads
99.9 MPG (I WISH!!!). Despite these shortcomings, the car does run very well.

I feel that the EFI system is very good too, although it can be very difficult
to properly diagnose problems, even to the experienced mechanic--You should
see the terrified reactions I've gotten from Chrysler mechanics when pulling
into the dealership with one of these cars!!

Nonetheless, my '82 is generally a pleasure to drive as well. Whether you
choose an EFI or converted model, you MUST get the complete service manual
set, including the service manual, engine performance manual, and (if you can
find it) service-bulletin manual. These will prove an invaluable source in
leading you and/or your mechanic through diagnostic procedures.

Although both of my Imperials have very good reliability records, I would not
rely on one as my only source of transport; they're just not as reliable as a
brand new modern car, but how could they be? Since they can be finicky and
difficult to diagnose, you might be without wheels for a few days while you or
your mechanic tries to figure out what the problem is.

On the other hand, I've never had a sudden failure of one of these cars. They
always give you signs of an impending problem, and if you heed those warnings,
you won't be left stranded.

Here are some other things to watch for when car shopping: The '81's (at least
early- run '81's) were notorious for the deck lid rotting out as Chrysler did
not provide a proper drain hole (this was an early service bulletin), and the
lid would rust from the inside out. My '81 did this, and I was able to replace
it with a like-new one. On the other hand, my '82 shows no signs at all of
such a problem, as the drain hole problem had probably been corrected on the
line by that point.

If the car's been converted to carb., look carefully at how the fuel lines
have been routed. You could wind up with a fire if the lines are not properly
routed and secured. As per my previous IML letters, the '81 search-tune radio
is an atrocity in engineering, and finding anyone who'll actually touch the
thing to work on it is about as easy as finding one that actually works! I'd
suggest replacing it with a modern stereo if you get a car with one of those,
and hang on to the radio for posterity!

The GOOD NEWS is these cars are really a pleasure to drive. I love driving
both of mine. They ride super quiet, soft and comfy, yet still handle better
than the whales of previous generations. And the styling is contemporary even
on today's roads with aerodynamic "bubble" cars everywhere you look. You will
draw admiring glances from any car enthusiast you pass, and you'll hear
countless words of praise. Good luck in your search!!
ED F

Subject: '81 won't start, EFI problems

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 9:29 PM

Data is arriving piece by piece. I did not realize you had been able to verify
fuel spraying from the nozzles. That eliminates all the questions we had about
23 volt power supplies, ASDM modules, Control fuel pumps etc. etc. etc..

You are mistaken about one thing, however. The air flow sensor gets upset when
you take off the top of the air cleaner because in that condition NO AIR flows
across the venturi tube that protrudes into the snorkel, it all just goes down
the maw of the intake manifold, that is why the engine won't run with the
cover off, the computer shuts down the fuel flow because it cannot detect the
air flow through the snorkel.

But this function is not operative when you are cranking, so that is not the
reason it does not start, unless I am mistaken about the start-up lockout of
the air sensor input to the computer. I intended to verify that today but I
got too involved in removing my truck's transmission and throwing out the
throw out bearing. In any case, you have just proven that the problem is
ignition, since all you need is fuel, compression (I assume it is OK?) and
spark.

Maybe it is intermittent, but if it didn't start when you saw fuel going in,
there just about HAS to be an ignition problem.

The only other possibility is something mechanical, like jumping time, or
perhaps the EGR valve stuck open. It would be educational to run a compression
check on it, just to make sure. How many miles on this car, and do you know
any previous service history on the engine (mechanical)?

By the way, I posted this before but it must have been in one of the messages
you never got: there is no "starter solenoid". The starter pulling in to the
ring gear is a purely mechanical function. If it is not engaging, there is a
problem with it. As many of the members might recall, I have been battling one
of mine for over a year, that does run, but not right.

I have finally concluded that when the machine shop did the heads, he forgot
to trim the valve stems off so the lifters are working in the right part of
their range. I am about to pull the valve covers and the rocker shafts off to
verify this. Strange things happen when you let someone else work on your
engines. I had insisted that he return the heads to me unassembled so I could
check his work carefully, but his staff went ahead and buttoned them up before
I got there, and I accepted them that way. Dumb.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: Fuel Inj Message

From: Randall Weir <rweir@mysurf.com

To: Dick Benjamin <

Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 8:35 PM

Hi Dick,

One of the things Carl and I checked was if fuel was spraying into the
manifold. It is; on both sides. If there were no spark why would the engine
fire sometimes?

Friday afternoon I'll have time to remove #1 plug, lay it on the block and
turn the engine over to check for spark. I expect there will be spark. Refresh
my memory if I'm wrong about the Mass AirFlow Sensor. My past experience is
that if the air cleaner nut isn’t tight enough, too much air comes in - is
detected by the mass airflow sensor - and the engine just turns over but won't
start. My back pocket logic tells me 1) the starter is good (albeit the
solenoid may be marginal - the screws were so tight I was afraid of breaking
them and didn't get into it), 2) fuel is getting into the manifold as per
visual inspection and 3) some spark must be present (i.e. the coil is putting
out although I'd like to check it but I don't have the primary/secondary
resistance data) so it must be something else. Perhaps my logic is faulty but
that's the way I see it.

Randy rweir@mysurf.com

Subject: Carl's 81 w/FI

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:40:38 -0800

Carl,

Glad to hear from you again. I have updated my address book. Are you getting
messages to your old address still, or should I go back and forward the last
few I have sent to Randy?

Yes, I have butted in again, and you will see more input from me tonight. I
don't want to get in your way, but I am trying to learn and perhaps help with
getting Randy's car going again. I meant to ask and forgot, how does it crank
as far as speed of turning over. In other words, do you think it sounds like
the compression is OK? If it is poor, it will crank very fast, and if it is
dropping a cylinder or two, it will crank unevenly.

I cannot think of a thing to do with your problem that you have not already
thought of. I actually thought you had it solved the last time, wishful
thinking on my part, I guess.

Almost every one of the mysterious quitting or failure to start problems we
have heard about on the IML has turned out to be a poor connection somewhere
under the hood. I don't remember, did we ever talk about getting some contact
cleaner from Radio Shack and going over all the connectors?

Dick Benjamin

Subject: Carl's 81 w/FI

From: GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 8:44 PM

Hi again Imperial lovers.

I am back from extended travels and eager to hear from all of you. My e-mail
address has changed. Please send any direct messages

To: GradLtd@aol.com.

I came back on line yesterday and found that Dick Benjamin had apparently
responded to a message from Randy (Weir). Randy and I have identical cars and
we spent some time under the hood last weekend in an attempt to get Randy's
started and to keep mine from stalling.

On Randy's car we found we had both fuel and spark. We by-passed the shut off
module and found the in tank fuel pump was pumping fuel. Also we found that
the transmission linkage was involved, to some degree, in the previous starter
problems. A lack of battery power stopped us short at that point.

The engine caught several times and sputtered to a stop quickly. Fuel dropped
through the air cleaner had no effect. My 81, also with fuel injection, has a
repeated stalling problem in the first 15-20 minutes after a cold start. Cold
here means the car has not run for 90 plus minutes. This problem goes back in
time 8 months. The stall is a complete shut down, as fast and sure as if I had
turned of the ignition.

I have watched the stall occur with fuel pressure gauges and voltmeters
running. Both fuel and spark stop as a result of the stall, not before it. We
have by- passed the shut down module without effect.

I am temporarily stumped and open to any advice or suggestions as I start all
over in a search for the cause of the stall. I intend to continue cleaning
every connection and ground in the hope that this is a source of the problem.
Hopefully, in a continuing swapping of parts, Randy and I will both find the
cause of these problems, but we need your collective help and guidance to
point the way. Thanks to all. It is great to be home.

Carl Baty

Subject: 81w/FI stalls

From: GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:03:04 EST

Thanks for your responses. Dick, please resend send on the messages I missed.
If you were going to use part swapping as a diagnostic on these 81s where
would you start?

Carl Baty, San Diego

Subject: 81w/FI stalls

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:02:39 -0800

OK, Carl, I will strip the older messages in below.

As for part swapping, I guess with Randy's, I would try just changing the air
cleaner top housing assy first, which will changeout the air flow sensor (in
case I am wrong about that), the air temp sensor, the Combustion Control
Computer, and the Memory module. I'd place my money on the CCC now, with the
things I have heard so far, but it is easy to change the whole assembly as a
unit, and it also exercises the 22 connections which may just work wonders.
Before you do that, have you run a continuity check on the distributor PU
coil, and does the connector from there seem OK? You can find the two wires
where they go into the CC and check back toward the distributor from there
(with the connector unplugged at the CCC), you should see the same resistance.
The pin numbers and wire colors are in the manual. Of course, disconnect the
battery before you do anything.

With yours, I really think it is going to be much harder. It is possibly your
CCC getting screwed up by some combination of sensor readings while the car is
warming up, but there are so many, and what ever they are, it should not shut
down the ignition.

Your note that the ignition and the fuel system shuts off simultaneously is to
be expected, since the ASDM shuts off all power to the system as soon as it
detects more than a millisecond or so of ignition drop-out, so I don't think
you can sort cause from result that way. I would bypass the ASMD on your car,
and go through a complete warm up cycle that way, and see what the symptoms
are when the troubles come. You might get a totally different picture without
the ASDM "turning out the lights on you" while you are trying to see what is
happening.

The other thing that happens when one of these cars is warming up is there is
a changeover to a situation in which the O2 sensor begins to affect the CCC
and the AIR injection system is switched from the back exhaust ports on the
heads to the catalytic converter. The control for these changeovers are
described in the manuals, and you might want to reread that area. I think both
of these warm-up functions are supposed to be long over with by the time your
car is acting up, but maybe there is something wrong with a timer or a vacuum
hose routing. I think it is possible to defeat and bypass just about
everything, and make the car just run on the initial startup program
indefinitely, and maybe that would be the next thing to do to diagnose it.

You are probably going to have to print all this out and cut and paste to sort
by date or something, because they are all jumbled up. generally, the replies
come before the questions. Sorry about that. If I had more time, I would do it
for you, but I'm being pressed by other problems here. Dick Benjamin

Data is arriving piece by piece. I did not realize you had been able to verify
fuel spraying from the nozzles. That eliminates all the questions we had about
23 volt power supplies, ASDM modules, Control fuel pumps etc. etc. etc..

You are mistaken about one thing, however. The air flow sensor gets upset when
you take off the top of the air cleaner because in that condition NO AIR flows
across the venturi tube that protrudes into the snorkel, it all just goes down
the maw of the intake manifold, that is why the engine won't run with the
cover off, the computer shuts down the fuel flow because it cannot detect the
air flow through the snorkel.

But this function is not operative when you are cranking, so that is not the
reason it does not start, unless I am mistaken about the start-up lockout of
the air sensor input to the computer.

I intended to verify that today but I got too involved in removing my truck's
transmission and throwing out the throw out bearing.

In any case, you have just proven that the problem is ignition, since all you
need is fuel, compression (I assume it is OK?) and spark. Maybe it is
intermittent, but if it didn't start when you saw fuel going in, there just
about HAS to be an ignition problem.

The only other possibility is something mechanical, like jumping time, or
perhaps the EGR valve stuck open. It would be educational to run a compression
check on it, just to make sure. How many miles on this car, and do you know
any previous service history on the engine (mechanical)?

By the way, I posted this before but it must have been in one of the messages
you never got: there is no "starter solenoid". The starter pulling in to the
ring gear is a purely mechanical function. If it is not engaging, there is a
problem with it.

As many of the members might recall, I have been battling one of mine for over
a year, that does run, but not right. I have finally concluded that when the
machine shop did the heads, he forgot to trim the valve stems off so the
lifters are working in the right part of their range. I am about to pull the
valve covers and the rocker shafts off to verify this. Strange things happen
when you let someone else work on your engines. I had insisted that he return
the heads to me unassembled so I could check his work carefully, but his staff
went ahead and buttoned them up before I got there, and I accepted them that
way. Dumb.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81w/FI stalls

From: Randall Weir <rweir@mysurf.com
To: Dick Benjamin <

Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 8:35 PM

Hi Dick,

One of the things Carl and I checked was if fuel was spraying into the
manifold. It is; on both sides. If there were no spark why would the engine
fire sometimes?

Friday afternoon I'll have time to remove #1 plug, lay it on the block and
turn the engine over to check for spark. I expect there will be spark.

Refresh my memory if I'm wrong about the Mass Air Flow Sensor. My past
experience is that if the air cleaner nut isn't tight enough, too much air
comes in - is detected by the mass air flow sensor - and the engine just turns
over but won't start.

My back pocket logic tells me:

1) the starter is good (albeit the solenoid may be marginal - the screws were
so tight I was afraid of breaking them and didn't get into it),

2) fuel is getting into the manifold as per visual inspection and

3) some spark must be present (i.e. the coil is putting out although I'd like
to check it but I don't have the primary/secondary resistance data) so it must
be something else.

Perhaps my logic is faulty but that's the way I see it.

Randy Weir

that matter(?)

The air flow sensor is the device that is mounted with 4 screws in the air
cleaner "snorkel" that is connected to the flexible duct. I need to check in
the manuals to be sure, but I seem to recall that it has nothing to do with
the car's starting, since the air flow is always zero or nearly so when the
car is cranking, so the computer assumes a value until the other sensors tell
it the engine is running. If this is the case, it is not likely to be your
problem, at least with starting, which is the first thing to fix.

Next I would like to check to see that the control fuel pump is getting a
signal from the power module, should be around 10 to 12 volts, and that the
fuel is actually flowing out of the spray nozzles while cranking. (It is
necessary to fool the computer by adding a connection to one wire in the
starter relay plug, per the directions posted by Bob Harris a few months ago,
so that you can see what is going on.) Perhaps Carl did that?

If that is not happening, with the ASDM out of the picture, I would bet a buck
the 23 volt power supply has died. This is one of the more common problems
with the design. Has the HSA (hydraulic support plate assembly) been changed
out during your attempts to solve this problem?

The ignition question is still up in the air, since while you got it to start
one time briefly by adding liquid fuel to the intake, unless I am confused,
that is not a consistent result.

I've mentioned this before, and I don't want to be insultingly repetitive, but
there should be no reason to crank so long as to wear the battery down. If the
car is going to start, it will start immediately. Lets not cook your starter
and add to the problems.

I will CC Carl and the IML with this, so you should get it both ways.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81w/FI stalls

From: Randall Weir <rweir@mysurf.com

To: Dick Benjamin <

Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 4:31 PM

I haven't a clue why you aren't getting through. You're the only one who has
trouble. I don't think Carl did a coil check. Now way back when, the wrench
down at Colonial Dodge said he 'knew' the mass air flow sensor was bad but
didn't know if it'd been replaced. What is it and what does it look like? How
does one test it?

Can you get through to Carl on email?

Randy

Thanks for the report. I wish we were closer, I would have loved to be there
working with you guys. I don't have any more ideas beyond what I suggested
last time. I assume Carl checked the ignition coil etc. to determine that you
were getting spark. I’d really like to come down sometime and get into this
with you, but the next few weeks are grim for me. My clutch went out in my PU
this week, so that is the high priority item for me, since I need it to pull
our trailer to Jack Murphy stadium for the swap meet, and I was going to bring
my car hauling trailer down to try to sell it too, if I can get it cleaned up
in time. Maybe after the first of March, I can come down at some time that is
convenient for you guys. I sure wish we could get your car on the road again!

Dick Benjamin
Subject: '81 Status update
From: Randall Weir <rweir@mysurf.com
To: Dick Benjamin <
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 1998 1:40 PM Hi Dick,
Carl came over today. We poked around some and checked a number of things. We
did the ASDM checks; disconnected the plug and jumpered the two biggest wires
together. No change. There is 12 volts across pins 1 - 5 when starting.
OK, now we're getting somewhere. If I understand correctly, it fires when you
add a teaspoon of gas, but does not fire when you don't. Somehow, I missed
this essential information. I don't care how it runs when it fires, I just
want to demonstrate that the problem is or is not lack of fuel. Now it appears
we have demonstrated that it is lack of fuel. Now the next step is to see if
the ASDM is supplying 12 volts to the EFI system when you are cranking. Do you
have a test light, or a VOM?

Dick Benjamin

Dick,
I used just a tablespoon this time. Got in and cranked it until it dropped
out. After a few more times it fired, albeit rough. The longest it stayed
running was mere seconds.
RandyOK. If the car is going to start, it will start essentially immediately.
If it does not, don't keep cranking, it just wears out the starter. Just a few
seconds of cranking will tell you if we are on the right track.

If you want to get around a major possible source of your problem, unplug the
5 pin connector from the electronic module on the right front inner fender
(the plug has a screw in the center of it to hold it in place) and observe
that there are 3 small wires and 2 large wires in the harness of wires leading
to the plug. Take a small length of wire, strip it bare, and push one end into
the socket that each of the large wires comes to in the plug. Leave the plug
lay loose on the fender. Now we know that the ASDM is out of the picture. See
if the car will start now. You can try the tablespoon of gas again if you want
to give it a little head start, but now it should keep running when it fires.

I'll stop here to hear what you find out.

Dick Benjamin

From: randall weir <rweir@mysurf.com
To: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@alphainfo.com
The battery is charging after cranking and cranking and cranking...

OK, that settles it. 1 OZ is fine, maybe a little too much, but it should have
shown some sign of life. (I assume the cover was on the air cleaner).

No ignition.

Time to check the connections to the CCC, and the coil, ballast resistor and
distributor pickup coil. Carl is very familiar with this area.

Dick Benjamin

Ummmm, just a tablespoon? I put a shot (1 oz.). No effect.
Randy
Please reply

OK, Randy, as you know, I was afraid the problem was somewhere else.
The starter drive is supposed to be dry. Do not lube it unless you think it is
actually hanging up due to some interference, in which case find the cause and
file off the burr or whatever.

Before you reinstall the starter, get under there (or have someone do this)
with a strong flashlight and a dentist mirror and INSPECT THE RING GEAR! Most
likely, from the symptoms I understand you suffer, this will be the problem
area. The bad area may be only in one small part of the ring gear, but even
so, you will be playing Russian Roulette with the car every time you turn it
off.

I hope you don't mind, but I am going to post this along with your report to
the whole IML, in case someone else is lurking out there with the same
symptom, which as I understand from Carl is that the starter "whirrs" but the
engine does not turn over (fan doesn't move).

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81w/FI stalls
From: GRADLTD@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 7:03 AM
Thanks for your responses. Dick, please resend send on the messages I missed.
If you were going to use part swapping as a diagnostic on these 81s where
would you start? Carl Baty, San Diego
Subject: '81-'83 EFI Question: Air flow sensor

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:40:33 -0800

Randy, Carl and list;

Completing a thought I had yesterday, I did go look up the details of startup
operations on the EFI system. The air flow sensor has no effect on the
starting of the engine. As long as the starter is engaged, the air flow signal
is ignored by the computer. The car should start normally even if the air flow
sensor is defective. On the other hand, if the car starts normally, and then
dies quickly after the key is released to go back to the run position, the air
flow sensor is a possible culprit.

It is possible, using the method posted by Bob Harris, to lock the CCC into
thinking the starter is cranking, and thus using the preprogrammed air flow
quantity indefinitely, for diagnostic purposes. If this makes the car run,
(albeit poorly since the parameters will be correct for only one RPM), this
would support the conclusion that the air flow sensor is a problem.

This diagnostic technique is the same one used to view the fuel flow from the
low speed nozzles with the cover off the air cleaner, so perhaps this has
already been done with Randy's car.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 w FI Stalls

From: GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:32:30 EST
Hi again

Previously - my 81 stalls after starting during the first 15-20 minute of warm
up.

I note over and over that air seems to have something to do with the stall.
When I open the hood or take the air cleaner off and replace it the car seems
to run normally. There is something here which involves the flow oxygen. This
is why I keep going back to things like the air flow sensor. I am able to
avoid the stall sometimes by hitting the accelerator hard as soon a I sense a
stall starting. These two things are the only way I have been able to impact
the stall. Could they be related? Thanks Carl

Subject: 81 w FI Stalls

From: "Dick Benjamin" <

Sent: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:35:19 -0800

Well, I hate to see you spending money on an Easter Egg hunt for the problem,
but if you have access to a known good Air Flow sensor, they are easy to
change so you could certainly try that. You are welcome to the one off my
brown car for a temporary test, but this is my daily driver, I would not want
to put it out of commission too long. I do not have any spares. Maybe Gary
Hasey or Mike Bleznyk could come up with one.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 81 w FI Stalls
From: GRADLTD@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 10:32 PM

Hi again Previously - my 81 stalls after starting during the first 15-20
minute of warm up. I note over and over that air seems to have something to
do with the stall. When I open the hood or take the air cleaner off and
replace it the car seems to run normally. There is something here which
involves the flow oxygen. This is why I keep going back to things like the air
flow sensor. I am able to avoid the stall sometimes by hitting the accelerator
hard as soon a I sense a stall starting. These two things are the only way I
have been able to impact the stall. Could they be related?

Thanks Carl
Subject: '81-'83 EFI Question: Air flow sensor

From: mblez@juno.com

Sent: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:06:27 -0500

Randy, Carl, and Dick,
My experience with bad air flow modules is that when they are bad, the car
will start then immediately die. Dick is correct in his diagnosis of this
component. Also, Carl if you have checked all the basic cold stalling culprits
and they are working properly, I would put my money on the CCC being bad. I
have replaced many CCC for this coldstalling problem.

Your comments about air flow having something to do with your stalling. The
CCC has a air temp. sensor (thermistor) located in its housing that extends
into the air cleaner. This resister measures the temp. of the air after it
passes through the airflow sensor. Which helps the CCC more accurately process
the weight of the air entering the intake. This info. is also compared to
info. from the fuel flowmeter to help control the air/fuel mixture. This
resistor can be easily tested with a DMM, a good resistor should read about
2.0 ohms on the 20K scale when warm, if my memory serves me right. Make sure
the system is disconnected during this test. This resistor can be replaced. I
do have a good spare airflow module if you would like to try it.
Later, M Blez.

Subject: '81-'83 EFI Question: Air flow sensor

From: GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:32:17 EST

Dick, M Blez, Bob Harris

Thank you for your suggestions. I am starting over redoing tests which I think
might uncover the source of the problem of repeated stalls before the engine
is warmed up. I had a fairly comprehensive list with input from many,
including Dick, Nancy and Bob Harris. A major network crash at my office wiped
out my past IML files. I would appreciate any help in pulling past suggestions
from archives, or re-sending suggestions. I know I lost one particular
specific suggestion from Bob Harris which I was about to implement.

My car has to pass smog this month in California and I need to start preparing
for that wonderful experience. Please send on any old or new suggestions you
might have. I do have the ability to interchange parts with Randy's 81 across
town. Our goal is to have both cars up and running well for the Escondido
meet.

I have additional room for people who don't mind a sofa bed 12 miles south of
Escondido on Interstate -15. Lodgers would be welcome. Carl Baty.

Subject: 81 Imp Engine Pipes

From: Stude1966 <Stude1966@aol.com

Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:07:49 EST

Looking for engine pipes with cats for 81, anyone know where and how much, my
Chrysler dealer just laughs.

Bill

Subject: 1981 Imperial Stalls after Warmup!

Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:20:11 -0800

From: Tony Lindsey <xxltony@crash.cts.com

New Subscriber(s): Cliff ThompsonEmail Address is: Lester@cnwl.igs.netMember
Location: Cornwall Ontario Canada

Car(s) owned: 1981 Imperial97 kmHeather Gray

Self-Introduction: Hi, my name is Cliff Thompson and I've owned my Imperial
for nine years. This has been a very good car and is still in nice shape. I
only have one problem with it which is it has started to stall on me after
warm-up. I'm looking for help in this area.

Subject: 83 Stalls -Warm up

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:41:07 EST

Hi new Imperial owner.

I am Carl Baty in San Diego. I have been away from my home and my email most
of the last 2-3 months. I picked up on the tale end of a message today
regarding an 82 w/FI that stalls during the warm up period (first 15-20
minutes by my definition). Is this information correct?

I have learned a great deal about the EFI and the strange symptoms it can
produce. I have my car running very well now and maybe I can help you get
yours going too. Please give me all the symptoms related to stalling. How long
after you start the car in the morning does it take to start stalling. How
many times does it stall during the first 15-20 minutes. Does it start easily
after a stall? If the car has been sitting for two or three hours does it go
through the stalling process again. How soon after this somewhat coldstart
does it start stalling and does it follow the same pattern as a totally cold
start? Since I must have missed an earlier message to the mailing list please
send that directly to me. I think we can fix this one. Carl

gradltd@aol.com

Subject: new '83 Imperial

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:42:37 -0800

Walter;

I am sorry, I do not have a source for translating these numbers into real
world measurements. I expect that they are just voltage measurements picked
off the various inputs to the CCC, but I don't know the scale used to convert
them to volts. There does not seem to be any source of information on the
factory test set. I am sure it was not very sophisticated, though.

The symptom you are fighting has been an epidemic this winter, and Carl Baty
in San Diego has done as much work as anyone in trouble shooting his and
another IML member's '81s. Perhaps he will chime in with some information for
you.

My only thought on the off idle sag is that perhaps the fuel rails are not
spraying a healthy stream, especially the low power nozzles. The fuel rail
assembly is easily removed (two mounting screws and a brass fuel line fitting)
and easily disassembled and cleaned. I have used a spray aerosol bomb of
carburetor cleaner to flush out each of the 8 nozzles individually by
pressuring the cleaner back through the whole assembly until it runs all over
your hands. Be sure to remove all 3 "O" rings from the assembly before you do
this, I assume the rubber does not look upon the carb cleaner as a friendly
substance.

After this cleanout and reassembly, my pet '81 ran much better, and more
importantly, passed the CA smog test with flying colors, which it had flunked
badly before. I assume you have all the air passageways tightly connected, so
that all the intake air is forced to go past the air flow sensor. This means
the lid has to be on tight, with the clamp ring around it, and that the PCV
valve and any other potential vacuum leak is verified to be A-OK. When
everything is right on these cars. they pull strongly from first rotation of
the engine, no matter how cold the engine or the ambient, so there IS an
answer to your problem, we just have to figure out where!

Dick Benjaminbondotmec@dte.net

Fuel - 3-25Air - 2-25Fuel Temp - 16-21Throttle position - not to exceed
13.8Vac. Sol. - .1-.2Water Temp - 8-12 Does anyone know the units for these
numbers or can anyone tell me how to further troubleshoot these sensors?

Subject: new '83 Imperial
Sender: andydymek@pop.pipeline.com
Sent: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:25:59 -0500

From: Walter Dymek <andydymek@pipeline.com
Walter;

I am sorry, I do not have a source for translating these numbers into real
world measurements. I expect that they are just voltage measurements picked
off the various inputs to the CCC, but I don't know the scale used to convert
them to volts. There does not seem to be any source of information on the
factory test set. I am sure it was not very sophisticated, though.

The symptom you are fighting has been an epidemic this winter, and Carl Baty
in San Diego has done as much work as anyone in trouble shooting his and
another IML member's '81s. Perhaps he will chime in with some information for
you.

My only thought on the off idle sag is that perhaps the fuel rails are not
spraying a healthy stream, especially the low power nozzles. The fuel rail
assembly is easily removed (two mounting screws and a brass fuel line fitting)
and easily disassembled and cleaned. I have used a spray aerosol bomb of
carburetor cleaner to flush out each of the 8 nozzles individually by
pressuring the cleaner back through the whole assembly until it runs all over
your hands. Be sure to remove all 3 "O" rings from the assembly before you do
this, I assume the rubber does not look upon the carb cleaneras a friendly
substance.

After this cleanout and reassembly, my pet '81 ran much better, and more
importantly, passed the CA smog test with flying colors, which it had flunked
badly before. I assume you have all the air passageways tightly connected, so
that all the intake air is forced to go past the air flow sensor. This means
the lid has to be on tight, with the clamp ring around it, and that the PCV
valve and any other potential vacuum leak is verified to be A-OK. When
everything is right on these cars. they pull strongly from first rotation of
the engine, no matter how cold the engine or the ambient, so there IS an
answer to your problem, we just have to figure out where!

Dick Benjaminbondotmec@dte.net

Fuel - 3-25Air - 2-25Fuel Temp - 16-21Throttle position - not to exceed
13.8Vac. Sol. - .1-.2Water Temp - 8-12 Does anyone know the units for these
numbers or can anyone tell me how to further troubleshoot these sensors?
I have checked all vacuum lines, PCV valve, etc. to make sure that no vacuum
leaks exist. Air cleaner is down tight. I have also removed and cleaned the
fuel rail because I didn't like the squirt I got when I checked for fuel. I
would assume that the water temp sensor and the vacuum solenoid could be
checked by either disconnecting the sensor or jumpering it, just don't know
which would be the right method.

Subject: new '83 Imperial

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:13:20 -0800
The important thing here is to recognize that there are two entirely separate
water temp sensors. The one which controls the warning light on the dash is a
simple switch, and of course could be bypassed with a wire for diagnosis
purposes, but the one which is important to the warm up performance is a
variable resistance, that changes from under 1000 Ohms to about 3000 OHMS
under temperature variations. These are delicate, and usually break when
trying to remove them from the water jacket. They are mounted next to the
water outlet to the radiator on the Driver's side front of the intake
manifold, and have a 2 wire connector with the terminals arranged in an "L"
shape. You could certainly unplug it and substitute a variable resistor, to
experiment with the effect on the CCC, but do not substitute a short or you
may damage the CCC.

If you disconnect this sensor, try reading the resistance between the two
terminals with the engine cold and with it hot, and see if the readings are in
reasonable agreement with the above range. If the sensor reads more than an
order of magnitude out of range, it has failed for sure, and possibly the
tolerable error is much smaller than that, I do not know.

The last time I checked, these were still available from Chrysler dealers, but
they have to use their parts locator to track one down for you, and the price
will be about $50. If you order one, be sure to get return privileges, since
many of them on the shelves have failed over the years. I speak from bitter
experience.

Dick Benjaminbondotmec@dte.net

further troubleshoot these sensors? for fuel. I would assume that the water
temp sensor and the vacuum solenoid could be checked by either disconnecting
the sensor or jumpering it, just don't know which would be the right method.

Subject: 81-83 with EFI

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:46:28 EST

Hi 81-83 EFI Drivers

As many of you know I have been daily driving my 81 with FI for over two years
now. I have leaned a great deal. I have been humbled many times. I have put an
additional 20,000 miles on the clock in those two years. Many people like Dick
Benjamin and too many others to mention have helped me along. Many thanks to
the Imperial Club.

My 81 (named Beauty) is now running beautifully. I have been through a series
of problems dealing with 5-10 minute waits before she would restart while the
engine was still warm. That one was finally fixed by a solid regrounding of
the ASD. This Automatic Shutdown Module (On the passenger side fender wall)
looked as if it had a decent ground but after cleaning it and running for a
time, I ran a new ground from the ASD to the engine, and found additional
gains in performance. I recommend hard grounds for everyone. Cleaning and
checking grounds and contacts throughout the EFI is also recommended.

Just as I was putting the non restart problem behind me "Beauty" started to
shut down (as if I had shut off the ignition) 3 to 4 times, between 9 and 20
minutes of a cold start. After 20 minutes she would run without problem. She
restarted OK rapidly after each shut down, but the shut down could and did
occur at 70 MPH or idle. I remember the first time this happened on a freeway.
I put on the blinker and started motioning to the driver on my right to get
out of the way and, of course, he watched my antics and slowed down to match
my declining freeway speed and blocking me from the road side perfectly.

If the car had been sitting for 2-3 hours she would shut down within 3-20
minutes after start and the number of required restarts then varied from 1-9.
I spent lots of time working on this problem and leaning some more as I went
along. The first thing I learned is that it pays to find someone else with an
81-83 w/EFI. I matched up with Randy Weir here in San Diego and we started
making gains in knowledge through part swapping parts. Randy's problem was
that his car did not restart one day and hasn't run since.

We switched CCCs (Computer Control Modules), ($200-$250 at a Chrysler dealer)
and found My car mimicked Randy's by catching and then dying instantly.
Putting my CCC on Randy's car resulted in the car running but only as long as
we poured fuel down the hole in the center of the air cleaner housing. We
installed an entire Hydraulic Support Plate and Throttle Body Assembly. Same
result. We welcome suggestions. Next weekend we hope to return to Randy's
problem so please give us your input before next Saturday.

Mean time, back at the ranch, I replaced my CCC and still found sluggish
acceleration during the first 15 minutes of warm up but no more shut downs. I
went to NAPA and purchased an EFI Coolant Temperature Sensor for about $25 and
replaced mine. It is located on the driver's side of the intake coolant
manifold crossover. Right up against the largest radiator hose. It is a tight
fit in there for a 15/16 open end. Be careful with the plastic two-pronged ERG
Coolant Control Valve next to it.

This replacement cut my sluggish cold acceleration to a problem a new driver
would not notice. NAPA has two other sensors I will replace next weekend.
These are the also temperature sensors and neither are expensive. The part
numbers are TS 5003 (labeled Cool. Temp. Sensor) and, part number 2-2250
(labeled Temp Sensor.
Both of these parts are very visible when the air cleaner housing is removed.
That is about all I can offer this day. Next week may produce more knowledge
and if it does, you folks will be the first to hear.

Carl Baty
San Diego

Subject: 81-83 with EFI
From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)
Sent: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:19:41 -0800

Carl;

This is great info - thanks so much for posting it for the rest of us.

I'd appreciate knowing which part number you found at NAPA for an acceptable
match for the EFI coolant sensor (the one with two wires). I went through
their books and did not see one with the exact resistance values, so I bought
mine from Chrysler, at about $50.

Also, if you have a VOM, would you measure the resistance of the sensor with
the harness unplugged, both the one that you replaced and the new one? I am
trying to gather data so we can check these things without having to remove
them from the car, which as you found out is difficult, and as I found out
often results in a busted sensor if the threads are at all corroded.

On Randy's car, I think the next thing to try is to measure the fuel delivery
from the in-tank pump. There should be fuel available at about 13 PSI anytime
+12 Volts is jumpered to the large dark green wire on either end of the in-
tank dropping resistor. You don't even need to turn on the ignition so there
should be no risk of a major spill.

If you put a temporary hose on the main supply line (the metal line coming
from the tank) and run it outside the car so you can measure fuel delivery
rate, This would also be important to know. By the way, if the pressure is
fine but the delivery rate is very low, say less then 10 OZ in a minute, I
would suspect either a plugged fuel filter assembly under the passenger's
door, or a crimped rubber hose at the same location. Been there, had that, at
the side of the road in the middle of the desert!

Have you made contact with the fellow in your area whose info I posted the
other day who had a spare EFI system for sale?
Dick Benjaminbondotmec@dte.net

Putting my CCC on Randy's car resulted in the car running but only as long as
we poured fuel down the hole in the center of the air cleaner housing. We
installed an entire Hydraulic Support Plate and Throttle Body Assembly. Same
result. We welcome suggestions. Next weekend we hope to return to Randy's
problem so please give us your input before next Saturday. went to NAPA and
purchased an EFI Coolant Temperature Sensor for about $25 and replaced mine.
It is located on the driver's side of the intake coolant manifold crossover.

Subject: Stalling '83 Imperial
Sender: andydymek@pop.pipeline.com
From: Walter Dymek <andydymek@pipeline.com
It has been raining here most of the weekend so I have not had the chance to
measure any sensors and use the great troubleshooting information received so
far but I have been reading my service manual. A question that comes up is
this: On key up, should fuel squirt out of the low power and the high power
fuel rails or just the low power fuel rails? The service manual seems to imply
that the initial shot of fuel comes from both fuel rails. Thanks! AndyD
Subject: Stalling '83 Imperial
From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)
Sent: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:44:35 -0800

Both rails should squirt, since there is no pressure regulation going on yet,
the Control Fuel pump is going through it's purge cycle, just running a Max
speed for an instant, thus both the low pressure and high pressure valves are
open, and all 8 nozzles should be squirting.

From Carl Baty's info, I have a strong suspicion that your EFI coolant sensor
is going to turn out to be the culprit. Carl found an acceptable substitute at
NAPA, and I hope he will tell us which part number he used. I had concluded
they couldn't supply it, but I must have missed one in their book.

Dick Benjaminbondotmec@dte.net

Subject: Stalling '83 Imperial
From: Walter Dymek <andydymek@pipeline.com
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 1998 6:59 PM
It has been raining here most of the weekend so I have not had the chance to
measure any sensors and use the great troubleshooting information received so
far but I have been reading my service manual. A question that comes up is
this: On key up, should fuel squirt out of the low power and the high power
fuel rails or just the low power fuel rails? The service manual seems to imply
that the initial shot of fuel comes from both fuel rails. Thanks! AndyD
Subject: Stalling '83 Imperial
From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.comSent: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:09:34 EST
Hi Dick and Everyone

Caught we awake this time. The NAPA (COOL. TEMP. SENSOR) which is the EFI
Coolant Sensor in the manual is NAPA part TS5008. I am getting together a list
of parts from Chrysler. I am finding that the dealer parts people are finding
it easier to say "No longer Available" than to try to figure out which part
you want. If anyone has part numbers for 81-83 Imperials send them on and I
will get back to everyone with a collection of sorts.

Carl Baty San Diego

Subject: 81-83 with EFI
From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.comSent: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:47:28 EST
Dick

I posted the EFI sensor number this morning. Will repost if needed. Both of
the EFI sensors I purchased (Yes, 2 prongs) are now in my and Randy's cars.
They are such a bear to get in and out that it is too late to measure voltage.
That sensor was positively the source of many of the poor warm up problems and
I think it only cost $25.00

We ran out of time and energy working on Randy's car last weekend. We start
again, and I hope for the last time, early next Saturday. We know a tremendous
amount more than we started. You're right that we will be looking at fuel, but
thanks to everyone's help, only fuel, only in a couple of places. Will let you
know Carl

Subject: 81-83 with EFI
From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.comSent: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:58:30
ESTDick Benjamin

Here is the resend of this morning's message. I was able to find center caps
for wire wheels here in San Diego. I could track them down again if you
needed.

Hi Dick and Everyone

Caught me awake this time. The NAPA (COOL. TEMP. SENSOR) which is the EFI
Coolant Sensor in the manual is NAPA part TS5008. I am getting together a list
of parts from Chrysler. I am finding that the dealer parts people are finding
it easier to say "No longer Available" than to try to figure out which part
you want. If anyone has part numbers for 81-83 Imperials send them on and I
will get back to everyone with a collection of sorts.

Carl Baty San Diego

Subject: 81-83 with EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:58:18 -0800

OK, Carl. Yes, I got your message with the part numbers.

I hadn't asked you to measure any voltage on them, what I wanted you to do was
to take your VOM, set it on the resistance scale, and measure the resistance
between the two prongs of the sensor with nothing else connected to it.

You do not need to take it out to do this, just pull the connector off it and
measure between the two prongs. You will get a reading in the 500 OHM to 5000
OHM range, if the sensor is still electrically functional. It is important to
make the reading without touching the prongs with your fingers, since that
would lower the reading.

I also wanted to know the value you read the same way on the one that you
removed from your car, since we think that was the source of your problem with
cold stalling.

It will also be important to know the temperature of the sensors
(approximately) when you make the measurement.

There is no other way to determine what the threshold values of resistance are
for a good, marginal, and bad sensor than to start compiling statistics as to
what the readings are for ones that work well, work poorly, and work not at
all. I have already take the measurements on the new ones I got from Chrysler,
and the ones in my two cars, and I plan to gather as many of these readings as
I can and chart them, finally to publish them on the IML for all the '81-83
owners as soon as I get enough readings to make some decisions about cut-off
values.

Thanks for helping with this. I have a feeling that the work you have done is
getting close to a problem that most of our cars seem to develop at one time
or another.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 81-83 with EFI

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Monday, March 23, 1998 10:47 PM

Dick
I posted the EFI sensor number this morning. Will repost if needed. Both of
the EFI sensors I purchased (Yes, 2 prongs) are now in my and Randy's cars.
They are such a bear to get in and out that it is too late to measure voltage.
That sensor was positively the source of many of the poor warm up problems and
I think it only cost $25.00.

We ran out of time and energy working on Randy's car last weekend. We start
again, and I hope for the last time, early next Saturday. We know a tremendous
amount more than we started. You're right that we will be looking at fuel, but
thanks to everyone's help, only fuel, only in a couple of places. Will let you
know

Carl
Subject: 81-83 with EFI

Sent: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:04:48 -0800

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Carl;

Apparently AOL is having message delivery problems again. I had already
responded to your message (yesterday some time), but it looks like you did not
get it.

Anyway, on the center caps, if you have address or phone number handy, I would
appreciate it. This is not my highest priority, but if I came across a couple
of nice caps at a price I can stand, I would definitely pick them up. Please
do not go to any trouble for this, as I say, there are higher priority things
on my list, (like getting my new intake manifold on my Black '81, so I can
enjoy my favorite car again with its all new (internally) engine and
transmission.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Dick Benjamin
I was able to find center caps for wire wheels here in San Diego. I could
track them down again if you needed.

Subject: Advice, & info concerning 81-83's

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:38:10 -0800

Kevin;

Some of these cars are incredibly durable and trouble free, others seem to be
a pain in the BUTT!. I have 3 of them, one is a factory conversion, and it
runs like any other 318 with a 904 tranny built in the early 80's, in other
words, reluctant to start and balky when cold, somewhat poorer performance and
mileage than the EFI ones, but basically, if it's the looks that attracts you,
that is probably the best choice if there is no mechanic around who is brave
enough to maintain an EFI car for you.

My EFI daily driver is getting close to 300,000 MI, runs perfectly even though
the engine is very tired, noisy and smoky. I know the car from new, and it has
never given a moment's trouble in all those miles. Tired as it is, it starts
immediately in any weather, pulls strongly from the first instant even when
very cold, gets about 26 MPG at 65 MPH, and will run rings around the
carbureted car performance wise.

My mint original near show condition car has always been somewhat troublesome,
in fact I have it because the original owner did not want to pay the $4500 to
the local dealer to have it converted, which they advised her to do. (The
service manager is a friend of mine, and he tipped me off the car would be for
sale, I had admired it for years, it is a beautiful example of the breed.)
Shortly after buying it, I discovered the problem with the car, and fixed it,
then drove it almost 7 years without a hitch. Now it is acting up in a new
way, and even though I feel fairly competent to deal with these cars, it so
far has me stumped. I will have to fix it myself, no one else has volunteered,
so I know the feeling of frustration with a car that the dealer won't service.

That's what makes the world go around, choices.

If you have an EFI car and would like to convert it to carburetor, just say
so, there are people on the IML who would jump at a chance to convert one
back, including me.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: Advice, & info concerning 81-83's

From: Kev. <Anthurium@webtv.net

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 1998 5:04 PM

Some of my questions may sound stupid, but I really REALLY have some concerns
about owning and maintaining one of these cars. I bought my 83 not knowing
about there unusual EFI, or there troubled past with this. There just one of
the many Chryslers that I love looks wise. Can these cars be maintained and be
reliable by someone not all that mechanically inclined? No garage, or even
Chrysler here in Salt Lake City will touch my car. Are factory carb converted
cars problem free if I were able to locate one? I love these cars and want to
enjoy mine by driving it, but I’m concerned about wear & tear, and not being
able to fix it...or being able to afford to fix it & find parts. Any help or
advice from any one?

Kevin, 83 Imperial SLC, UT

Subject: '83 Imperial stalls no more

Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:18:47 -0500

From: Walter Dymek <andydymek@pipeline.com

Well, thanks to the good advice from a number of IML’ers, my '83 no longer
stalls. Turns out that the EFI coolant temp. sensor was bad. When cold (about
40F) the sensor reads 120K ohms and hot it reads 6K ohms. The new one, from
NAPA, reads 1.012K ohms at 65F.

I haven't tried to measure the resistance of the new sensor when its hot yet.
Interestingly, the sensor is still available because it is used on all RWD
Chrysler cars (Gran Fury, Diplomat, Cordoba, Mirada) from '81 to '89.
Apparently this sensor is also used on some Dodge trucks. Thanks again for
everyone for the help.

Subject: '83 Imperial stalls no more

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:58:18 -0800

Wow. Good data. Thanks, now we have something to go on. The 120K is so close
to an open circuit that I assume it had failed completely. Carl Baty, have you
had a chance to measure either of the ones you were changing out?

Walter:

please verify that we are talking about NAPA # TS 5008 here.

Your 65F reading is right in the range with others I have checked. I would
like to know what you read hot also, but preliminarily, it seems that "you've
got the right one, Baby".

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

From: Walter Dymek <andydymek@pipeline.com Well, thanks to the good
advice from a number of IML’ers, my '83 no longer stalls. Turns out that the
EFI coolant temp. sensor was bad. When cold (about 40F) the sensor reads 120K
ohms and hot it reads 6K ohms. The new one, from NAPA, reads 1.012K ohms at
65F. I haven't tried to measure the resistance of the new sensor when its hot
yet.

Subject: '83 Imperial stalls no more

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:55:39 EST

Congratulations for sticking to it. Getting any 81-83 tuned up and running
right is a thrill I can enjoy as much as if it were my own car. This Weekend
Randy Weir's 81 is going to join the club and start running great. Fingers
crossed for luck

Dick I thought Randy had taken the measurements you needed. If that is not
accurate let me know I still have both the old sensor

Carl Baty San Diego

Subject: '83 Imperial stalls no more

Sent: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:31:19 -0500

From: Walter Dymek <andydymek@pipeline.com

At 06:58 PM 3/30/98 -0800, you wrote:

Wow. Good data. Thanks, now we have something to go on. The 120K is so close
to an open circuit that I assume it had failed completely. Carl Baty, have you
had a chance to measure either of the ones you were changing out?

Walter: please verify that we are talking about NAPA # TS 5008 here.

Your 65F reading is right in the range with others I have checked. I would
like to know what you read hot also, but preliminarily, it seems that "you've
got the right one, Baby".

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

From: Walter Dymek <andydymek@pipeline.com

Well, thanks to the good advice from a number of IML’ers, my '83 no longer
stalls. Turns out that the EFI coolant temp. sensor was bad. When cold (about
40F) the sensor reads 120K ohms and hot it reads 6K ohms. The new one, from
NAPA, reads 1.012K ohms at 65F. I haven't tried to measure the resistance of
the new sensor when its hot yet.

Yes, the sensor is the TS 5008. I will let you know what my hot resistance is
when I get a chance to measure it.

Subject: 81-83 Imperials

From: Anthurium@webtv.net (Kev.)

Sent: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:03:02 -0700

Thanks Bill & Dick for your comments. I’m not a strict purist, but I'd never
convert my EFI car to a carb. I would however own a car all ready converted
and enjoy it just as much. Some of your comments got me feeling that I’ve been
overly paranoid.

I’ve only got 80,000 miles on my 83 and it runs good once its warmed up. So
here’s a few more questions and I'll leave ya all alone. My car is very slow
to warm up & run well. Is this a symptom of a serious problem? And are there
some signs leading up to a fuel pump failure, and are new fuel pumps still
available from some one?
Thanks, Kevin-83

Subject: 81-83 Imperials

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:42:46 -0800

OK, 900 ohms is close enough to nominal that we don't learn anything yet. The
one that I had fail on me was completely open, and it turns out the nichrome
wire inside was broken. The resistance measurement was off scale on the 1K
scale.

(I note you said 900k ohms. I am assuming you meant 900 ohms).

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 81-83 Imperials

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 7:09 AM

Dick

We had essentially the same ohms reading on old and new EFI Coolant Sensors
when they were cold. Randy measured the new one in his car at 900k ohms at 70
degrees. I measured the old Coolant Sensors and found both to be 955k ohms at
50 degrees. I to was hoping for a diagnostic clue here but with cold sensors
we don't find it.

Carl Baty San Diego.

Subject: 1981 Imperial Fuel Injection 1981 Imperial EFI

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:15:28 EST

Help - Owners of 81 Imperials with EFI

My frustration level with an otherwise great car is rising to a point that may
force me to sell it by the pound.

I have a decent original '81 with 80,000 miles that will run only short
distances before it dies and will not immediately restart. I will describe
it's behavior then tell you what I have done to it. Maybe someone can suggest
next steps.

The car starts reasonably well when it is cold and runs OK until it starts to
warm up (5 to 10 minutes). As it begins to warm up it seems to loose power.
This is especially noticeable on acceleration. Steady state operation seems
OK. After I drive for 20 or more minutes in town (I don't dare take it on the
highway) it will die(usually at a stopsign). It may start and run another few
blocks before it will die again and then it probably will not restart. If I
let it set 45 minutes or so it will restart and run normally for another 20
minutes.

Within the last two years I have: Replaced plugs, plug wires, distributor pick
up plate, ignition coil (this seemed to correct the problem for a while),
engine coolant temperature sensor, oxygen sensor, air filter and fuel filters
(I am not sure these are the same as the original equipment).

I have reprogrammed the computer dozens of times with little noticeable
improvement. The starter and battery are new. It cranks good. I have taken
voltage measurements at a number of the EFI electrical connections both
starting and running. Although I am not sure what the correct voltages should
be there is nothing alarming.(no zero voltages where there should be power). I
have observed fuel flow both starting and running with a Lexan cover replacing
the factory air cleaner cover. I have the shop manual but I do not have the
diagnostic tool needed to analyze problems with this system.

I have studied the manual extensively so I am becoming familiar with the
system. So far this has only increased my knowledge without improving the car.
I have a fuel tank, intake manifold, carb and air cleaner for a conversion but
I would really like to retain the fuel injection.

I am open to any and all suggestions. Is anyone familiar with the Holley
conversion package for this car? Is it available and does it work?

Thanks for your input.

Rolland O.Westra

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:50:10 -0800

I should have added, that your loss of power when cold does not seem to be
related to this ASDM problem. This is more likely a problem with the EFI
coolant sensor. I know you have replaced it, but it would be prudent to verify
that the resistance of this sensor is around 1K ohm when cool, and about 3
times that when hot. These are also troublesome critters. I have often thought
of running the wires to a 5K pot inside the car and adjusting it while I drive
to see if that will clear up the cold balkiness. Haven't done it yet, but
everytime I hear of one of these, I wonder........

As to your question about the conversion package: the only one that will pass
Smog in California is the factory authorized conversion, I suspect these are
getting hard to find. They also definitely affect the performance and economy
of the car.

I understand other states will grant waivers so that a backyard conversion can
be used, but I don't know anything about where to get one. I would suggest one
just locate any mid-80's Mopar with a 318 and take the whole system, including
intake manifold.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

The car starts reasonably well when it is cold and runs OK until it starts to
warm up (5 to 10 minutes). As it begins to warm up it seems to loose power.
This is especially noticeable on acceleration.

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:41:52 -0800

We had a rash of this problem occurring about this time last year. I do not
remember how many cars were involved, but there were definitely more than one.
It is a springtime disease, apparently.

The cure for most of the cars was to run a separate ground wire from the ASDM
on the right front fender to the alternator case. The original design relied
on the case of the ASDM to make contact to the inner fender by virtue of the
fact that it is mounted to it with screws. As the cars age, and especially
after a temperature and moisture cycle, this ground begins to fail
intermittently. The problem might be either at the mounting tabs themselves,
or where the inner fender is connected to the rest of the body.

This is a very poor design, and there was a factory service letter about this
telling the mechanic to isolate the ASDM by rubber mounting washers so that it
is not grounded to the fender, and then provide a solid ground to the engine
directly. The reason for this is that there is a TTL bistable circuit in the
ASDM that will trigger on any disturbance of the ground connection and lock
you out of any power to the CCC until the system is reset by turning off the
key and restarting. If the ground is poor, this can prevent a restart also.

First, just try adding a wire from the mounting screw to the alternator
bracket, making sure everything is clean an shiny where the connections have
to take place. If this seems to make the problem go away, or at least much
better, then go the whole route and isolate the device from the sheetmetal
completely.

In case you are not familiar with the ASDM, this is the automatic shut down
module, which is really present to shut the system down if it detects anything
that could conceivably be a safety problem, like "key on, no RPM" for example.
If you are comfortable with driving with this function disabled, you can
jumper between the two #12 wires at the ASDM connector, leave it out of the
circuit, and it should never bother you again. Many of these cars are running
without the ASDM in the circuit.

You can of course temporarily bypass it to see if it is what is causing your
problem.

Keep us posted, please, and don't give up!

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI Fuel Injection

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Friday, April 03, 1998 11:15 AM

Help - Owners of 81 Imperials with EFI

My frustration level with an otherwise great car is rising to a point that may
force me to sell it by the pound. I have a decent original '81 with 80,000
miles that will run only short distances before it dies and will not
immediately restart.

I will describe it's behavior then tell you what I have done to it. Maybe
someone can suggest next steps. The car starts reasonably well when it is cold
and runs OK until it starts to warm up (5 to 10 minutes). As it begins to warm
up it seems to loose power. This is especially noticeable on acceleration.
Steady state operation seems OK.

After I drive for 20 or more minutes in town (I don't dare take it on the
highway) it will die (usually at a stopsign). It may start and run another few
blocks before it will die again and then it probably will not restart. If I
let it set 45 minutes or so it will restart and run normally for another 20
minutes.

Within the last two years I have: Replaced plugs, plug wires, distributor pick
up plate, ignition coil (this seemed to correct the problem for a while),
engine coolant temperature sensor, oxygen sensor, air filter and fuel filters
(I am not sure these are the same as the original equipment).

I have reprogrammed the computer dozens of times with little noticeable
improvement. The starter and battery are new. It cranks good. I have taken
voltage measurements at a number of the EFI electrical connections both
starting and running. Although I am not sure what the correct voltages should
be there is nothing alarming.(no zero voltages where there should be power). I
have observed fuel flow both starting and running with a Lexan cover replacing
the factory air cleaner cover.

I have the shop manual but I do not have the diagnostic tool needed to analyze
problems with this system. I have studied the manual extensively so I am
becoming familiar with the system. So far this has only increased my knowledge
without improving the car.

I have a fuel tank, intake manifold, carb and air cleaner for a conversion but
I would really like to retain the fuel injection. I am open to any and all
suggestions. Is anyone familiar with the Holley conversion package for this
car? Is it available and does it work? Thanks for your input.
Rolland O.Westra
Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 20:31:45 EST

Thanks for the quick reply and all the information Dick. I will try the things
you suggested and let you know how it works out.

Rolland Westra

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:44:31 EST

I note that you reprogrammed the computer many times. Have you tried replacing
it? Rebuilt CCCs cost $200 wholesale ($250) retail from the Chrysler Dealer.
Given the multiplicity of problems you are dealing with a new CCC would be my
next step.

Carl Baty
San Diego

Subject: Safety message 81-83 EFI cars!!!

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:00:24 -0800

Carl Baty reminds me that if one bypasses the ASDM, as I suggested in an
earlier post today, he must be careful to turn off the key if the car is not
running. If the key is left on, the EFI system will remain powered even with
the engine not running, which could result in too much gas pooling in the
intake manifold, with possible dangerous results.

Thanks, Carl.

I will have to do some thinking about how much fuel is pumped when the air
flow sensor sees no flow. Probably the default open loop idle quantity, since
there is no O2 signal, no throttle position except idle, and no primary
ignition drive to the CCC. Hmmm. Enough to make a big whooop when it does fire
up, and possibly enough to get into a hydrostatic lock situation, which could
be really dangerous.

If it were to become necessary to run a car this way for long periods, or by
inexperienced drivers, one should use the racer's trick of having a fuel cut
off wired into the oil pressure sender circuit, bypassed by the start signal
from the ignition switch.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: '83 EFI drivability problems

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:55:44 -0400

Allright, I mentioned in my first post that I'd be calling upon the collective
knowledge of this group to help me preserve my EFI Imperial.

First, let me tell you about the car and why I want to preserve it. It's an
'83 with 85,000 miles. It still has it's original paint and stripes (although
the paint is very faded and I lose more of the stripe every time I wash it).
It's Glacier blue with a silver velour interior (mint interior). I have the
original window sticker, which states that the car was originally owned by
Chrysler VP J.B. Naughton. Whomever owned the car next took very good care of
it, as it has no rust or body damage. The front bumper is fine, and I've
already replaced the peeling rear bumper. (I would like to find a "better"
rear bumper). Mine, although not peeling, is pretty dull. The car drives
excellent, and it's still super quiet. It's been a long time since I've seen a
better candidate for an easy resto.

One thing that I have altered from stock is the exhaust system. The original
was shot when I got it. Quiet duals w/H pipe have really improved passing
ability from 30+.

I'm going to layout all the problems. They might be related, or they might be
a number of smaller problems.

1. Had the gas tank out, the "sock" was pretty clean, but it was coming apart.
(I'd like to find a new one)? The tank was very clean, no rust or varnish.
Changed the fuel filters, they had been done before, gas was clean.

2. Fuel pump is loud, no matter if tank is full or empty.

3. Crank time seems a bit long. It always starts and runs. 2-3 seconds after a
cold crank, it "catches" for a moment, I don't let off the key, and it
starts/runs in a couple seconds.

4. You can't go WOT at any speed under 20 MPH. It will "pop" (Lean?) and
stall. It's worse from a dead stop. However, if you floor it at 25 MPH+, it
kicks down and takes off very well. (Especially since the duals w/out cats.
were added).

5. If you slow for a turn (10-15 MPH) and then get back on the gas, you have
to put up with crummy acceleration until about 25 MPH+. I'm sure this relates
to #4.

The car will get an honest 25 MPG at 65MPH+, high speed/cruise operation is
fine. I'd like to keep the EFI, but I want the car to perform the way it
should. Plugs/cap/rotor/wires are new. I took the "fuel bar assembly" apart
and cleaned it. Compressed air & carb. cleaner show that it flows fine.

If there's a place on the IML web page that archives EFI problems, please tell
me how to find it. However, if anyone can give me some quick advice on the
mailing list, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again,

Carmine F.

Subject: '83 EFI drivability problems

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:37:41 EDT

Its sound silly, but I have learned that it is sometimes necessary to re-time
the car after you have cut the power to the combustion computer. I know where
there is a rear bumper but the guy who has it does this as a way of making
money. If you are willing to pay more than you would pay at a junk yard I will
check it out for you. Carl Baty San Diego 81Imperial

Subject: References: '83 EFI drivability problems

From: t3176@flash.net

We have had reports before of driveability problems in EFI cars that have had
alterations to the exhaust system.

Problem existed before and after exhaust modifications. Exhaust mods to this
system (and most other early EFI systems) shouldn't cause any problems,
because the system doesn't monitor anything after the O2 sensor. Newer ('95+
OBD II) engine management systems have two (four with dual exhaust) O2
sensors, they monitor exhaust before and after the catalytic converters.
Removing the converters on one of these systems WILL have a detrimental effect
on performance.

All of these discussions were archived, and as Tony gets a round to it, will
be posted on the web site. I do not think they are posted.

Thanks for telling me this, I was wondering why I couldn't access them.

I think your fuel pump may have been damaged from running with low fuel
levels. My brown EFI car has a very noisy pump, and I know the bearings are
shot, but it still pumps, and the car is worn out anyway, so I just drive it
that way.

Thanks, this is probably the reason.

I posted a message to you a few weeks ago suggesting you check the resistance
of the EFI coolant sensor. Have you done that yet?

That wasn't me. This is only my second post to the list.

(I am assuming here that your driveability problem is occurring when the
engine is cold).

All the time, warm or cold.

If the sensor is OK, the next thing to try is to replace the CCC.

I'm pretty sure this problem is related to one of the components getting
weak/old. (Fuel pump, secondary pump, etc.) I was just wondering if this was a
"classic" problem that many people had encountered.

As for your starting difficulties, the system is designed to put a small
amount of liquid fuel into the intake manifold in the initial instant when you
first twist the key to the on position. If you listen carefully to the control
fuel pump (this is the one in the HSA, not the tank pump) while someone turns
the key to on, you will hear it pump for an instant.

I've heard it.

Anyway, the duration of this "purge" cycle, and consequently the amount of gas
injected, is dependent on the value of a very large tantalum capacitor, which
type are notoriously inaccurate, so some cars left the factory with inadequate
charging of gas in to the intake system for the initial start, and with age,
this problem has gotten worse.

I'll look into this. Now I'm wondering, if my secondary pump is weak, could it
be delivering inadequate fuel for both start-up & hard acceleration?

Thanks for your response

Carmine F.

Subject: 81 Imperial drivability

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:03:27 EDT

Dick:

I really appreciate your suggestions and comments regarding "this group of
nuts trying to keep the '81-83' EFI cars going and original.

Per your recommendation I have grounded the ASD and so far so good. I really
have not had a good opportunity to give a good test though. I will let you
know when I do.

My drivability problem is somewhat different than Carmine F's situation I
believe. Mine runs quite well when cold but as it warms up it loses power on
acceleration. The acceleration between 15 and 35 is quite poor. Road load
operation is OK.

I measured the resistance at the coolant temperature sensor. When cold (about
40F) it measures 1 K as you suggested. However, when the thrermostat opens
(around 180F I expect) it only reads 1.7K. Is this satisfactory?

Also I have read two recommendations to replace the CCC. Are these
particularly prone to failure? My experience with other spark control
computers is that they are quite reliable.

I have learned also that cycling the ignition key on and off prior to starting
will improved results. Where is this Tantalum capacitor that you mentioned
located and is it replaceable?

Thanks again for the good advice. I will stay tuned for more information.

Rolland Westra, Rockford, IL

Subject: '83 EFI drivability problems

From: "Jeff Guarino" <jguarino@pangea.ca

Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:47:38 -0700

Hello Carmine.

I was reading your post about a noisy pump and remembered something written
last June by Bob Harris. Here it is. Jeff Guarino

From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J.Harris)

Thanks again for your response, but I do have the correct side of the throttle
body and the linkage is tight, I have a low mileage car anyway. Also, 83
models came with a 270 microhenrie inductor in the Oxygen Sensor circuit to
the CCC to alleviate this bracketing, and the inductor didn't fix it either.

I want to pass along some tips and facts that may be of interest to other EFI
owners - from Chrysler Class notes taken during mechanic instructions at the
time that these cars were announced. Some of these items are now common
knowledge, but may be new to other people, here goes:

All of the fuel hoses are double lined, the inside being abrasion resistant,
to prevent the black dust from clouding the optical sensors in the Fuel
Metering Module. In connecting a fuel pressure test gauge to the system, avoid
connections with barbed ends to prevent the problem in item 1, above. The
rubber sleeve around the In-Tank pump is a noise suppressor, nothing else; the
pump was made by Tokheim. The Throttle Body was cast by Holley. The electrical
leads to the In-Tank pump are polarized, and if reversed, the pump will whine.
Allowing the fuel level to drop below 6 gallons will often result in pump
failure since it must be submerged to keep cool. The Fuel Pressure Regulator
inside the casting at the end of the Control Pump was revised and can be
identified by a dab of Yellow paint instead of the Green, on the top screw.
The Fuel Pressure Switch is closed @ pressures of 20 to 22 PSI; it has been
modified and now carries PN 4091901 and was made to be a fix in TSB 14-30-83.
I have many of these, but they have become quite expensive. Alcohol or dye
coloring in the fuel can adversely affect the Fuel Flow Meter and Chrysler has
issued notices to avoid these fuels - as if you could tell - but there have
been problems with fuels in certain localities that do cause problems.

Some drivers are Left-Footed using the brakes, this is not good on these cars
since there is a back-up switch to supplant the Closed Throttle Switch on the
Throttle Body in the event it becomes dirty and doesn't return the engine to
idle speed with the spark advance defaulted to 12 degrees. Pushing both pedals
simultaneously confuses the CCC.

Some Problems Within The System:

Mounting tabs on the Power Module break off and ground path is lost. Corroded
wire connectors cause multiple problems Air Switching Solenoids shorted to
ground. A/C turn ON stalls the engine. Oxygen Sensor wire broken, especially
at terminal 12 in the connector to the computer. Battery Feed to the CCC
Memory, (the round part of the computer), has a 620 ohm resistor in line to
limit current, check for continuity. If feed is lost, the memory is lost and
this memory is required to operate the engine in Closed Loop during Cold
Start-Up until the water and Oxygen Sensor are warm. The Red lead is this wire
and Battery voltage must always be present here. Fuel flow has a 10k ohm
resistor in its feed to the Instrument Panel and when it fails, the MPG
readings go bad, often 99.99 mpg

EGR valves often leak at the mounting, a new gasket number is substituted and
also the valve is changed and the vacuum nipple is at an angle. A service
package was made available to make a more positive close for the Throttle Stop
Switch, but I have found this to be not much better than not having one, I
believe it is no longer available. The ASD module by virtue of electrolysis
corroded the fender beneath it and the cure is to solder a ground strap to the
one mounting ear and run it to the screw on the top, back of the Alternator.
The ASD should be elevated off the fender house steel and two water valve
washers work fine here as insulators.

The Fuel Pressure Switch, mentioned above, was replaced because the original
unit had excessive resistance in the circuit and resulted in difficult
restarts when hot. Apparently early units came with loose Screws on the Idle
Speed Motor which became a problem.

If anyone is interested, I can tell you how to run the engine without the Air
Flow Sensor connected and the Air Cleaner cover removed. You can observe fuel
flow from the spray bars and it also serves as a test for the Air flow Sensor
itself. In this mode the engine should not be expected to run throughout its
full power range, but it is nice to see.

As to the unpublished Chrysler EFI Diagnostics that I have, I want to stress
that unless you have a Sun EFI tester, they aren't much good. I never finished
cleaning them up suitable for use and want to do this. however, I will compare
the invalid diagnostics in the 81 through 83 Service Manuals and these new
ones and pass this along later for those who care and have particular problems
in Starting, Fuel Flow, Starts-But-Stalls, and Cold and Warm Driveability.

That's enough for now.....Bob Harris [This is VERY useful information, and
we're all very grateful - You really know how to make yourself popular! -
Tony]

-----Original Message-----

Subject: '83 EFI drivability problems

From: t3176@flash.net <t3176@flash.net

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 5:58 PM

Allright, I mentioned in my first post that I'd be calling upon the collective
knowledge of this group to help me preserve my EFI Imperial.

First, let me tell you about the car and why I want to preserve it. It's an
'83 with 85,000 miles. It still has it's original paint and stripes (although
the paint is very faded and I lose more of the stripe every time I wash it).
It's Glacier blue with a silver velour interior (mint interior). I have the
original window sticker, which states that the car was originally owned by
Chrysler VP J.B. Naughton. Whomever owned the car next took very good care of
it, as it has no rust or body damage. The front bumper is fine, and I've
already replaced the peeling rear bumper. (I would like to find a "better"
rear bumper). Mine, although not peeling, is pretty dull. The car drives
excellent, and it's still super quiet. It's been a long time since I've seen a
better candidate for an easy resto.

One thing that I have altered from stock is the exhaust system. The original
was shot when I got it. Quiet duals w/H pipe have really improved passing
ability from 30+.

I'm going to layout all the problems. They might be related, or they might be
a number of smaller problems.

1. Had the gas tank out, the "sock" was pretty clean, but it was coming apart.
(I'd like to find a new one)? The tank was very clean, no rust or varnish.
Changed the fuel filters, they had been done before, gas was clean.

2. Fuel pump is loud, no matter if tank is full or empty.

3. Crank time seems a bit long. It always starts and runs. 2-3 seconds after a
cold crank, it "catches" for a moment, I don't let off the key, and it
starts/runs in a couple seconds.

4. You can't go WOT at any speed under 20 MPH. It will "pop" (Lean?) and
stall. It's worse from a dead stop. However, if you floor it at 25 MPH+, it
kicks down and takes off very well. (Especially since the duals w/out cats.
were added).

5. If you slow for a turn (10-15 MPH) and then get back on the gas, you have
to put up with crummy acceleration until about 25 MPH+. I'm sure this relates
to #4.

The car will get an honest 25 MPG at 65MPH+, high speed/cruise operation is
fine. I'd like to keep the EFI, but I want the car to perform the way it
should. Plugs/cap/rotor/wires are new. I took the "fuel bar assembly" apart
and cleaned it. Compressed air & carb. cleaner show that it flows fine.

If there's a place on the IML web page that archives EFI problems, please tell
me how to find it. However, if anyone can give me some quick advice on the
mailing list, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again,

Carmine F.

Subject: '83 EFI drivability problems

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:50:01 EDT

Jeff G.

Thanks a million for the information on EFI that you posted today. It is
exactly the kind of information that is so very helpful for us 81 - 83 EFI
owners that want to keep these machines original.

I have an 81 with EFI that is in pretty decent shape and when it runs it is a
delightful car to drive. However, I have had numerous reliability problems
with starting, starting and then dying and just quitting when I come to a stop
sign, then failing to restart. The car has 80,000 miles.

I will be using the information you provided and also any other service
bulletin information or corrections to the 81 shop manual that would be
helpful.

Thanks again. Because of you and others in IML I believe I can scrub my plans
to convert the 318 to a carburetor. Something I dreaded doing, not so much
because of the work, but because the factory fuel injection is great when it
works. I will just store my fuel tank, manifold, carb, air cleaner and wiring
harness for a period of time and hope I never need it.

I do have need for front and rear bumpers or a source for rechroming aluminum
if anyone has some information on this.

Rolland Westra

Subject: 81 Imperial drivability

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:09:35 EDT

Dick Benjamin

Thanks again for your prompt reply. I may order a new CCC and try to find a
coolant temperature sensor (the local dealer told me they were no longer
available even though they are used on several models).

When you mentioned that gunky, runny potting substance in the ASDM I was
reminded that my "Power Module" and the "fuel flow" module located within the
Hydraulic support plate have lost most of this encapsulating material. It has
collected at the bottom of the hydraulic support plate. I removed it once but
it is collecting again. Will this cause these two units to fail or is it a
sign they are already failing? Are replacements available?

Rolland Westra

Subject: '83 EFI drivability problems

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:45:38 -0700

Your comments about the location of sensing are of course correct. However,
the system is calibrated to work with a particular back pressure
characteristic, so it is still possible for there to be an effect. I would not
have mentioned it but for the fact that we have heard this before, from people
who have modified the exhaust system and then learned, to their sorrow, that
it has affected the driveability. Perhaps this is not the case in your car, I
don't know.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Problem existed before and after exhaust modifications. Exhaust mods to this
system (and most other early EFI systems) shouldn't cause any problems,
because the system doesn't monitor anything after the O2 sensor. I posted a
message to you a few weeks ago suggesting you check the resistance of the EFI
coolant sensor. Have you done that yet? That wasn't me. This is only my second
post to the list

Sorry, My error. We're getting confused here. Since your problem is also
present when warm, the probability is that the cause is elsewhere anyway.. (I
am assuming here that your driveability problem is occurring when the engine
is cold).All the time, warm or cold.,

If my secondary pump is weak, could it be delivering inadequate fuel for both
start-up & hard acceleration?

If you mean the "Control Fuel Pump", the one in the HSA, this is inside a
feedback loop, in which the CCC calls for a particular fuel flow rate, and
just applies power to the motor until the flow rate comes up to the programmed
amount. If the pump was weak, I suppose that would show up ultimately as fuel
starvation, when the pump deteriorated to the point where it could no longer
supply an adequate flow even wide open. I would think it would have to be
really sick, possible just about non-functional. It is a simple pump, you can
probably take it off the car and test it for flow rate. I have not done this,
but there is nothing tricky about it, it is just a 12 volt DC motor running a
rotary pump.

OR, with a lot of work, you could plumb in a pressure gauge and route it out
through the air intake so you could monitor the pressure, and also bring out a
test lead on the power supply to the motor, but since you are looking at a
point within a feedback loop, I do not know what the readings would mean to
you. If you saw a situation where the pump was getting the full 12 volts from
the CCC and still not putting out Max pressure (60 PSI), I guess you could
assume the pump is failing.

It is also possible that your in-tank pump is not up to snuff. The in tank
pump is designed to supply an generous oversupply of fuel, and it would have
to be really, really feeble to affect the running of the car. You could tee in
a pressure gauge in the line from the tank, perhaps the easy place would be a
the rubber hose connections to the fuel filters, and remote the gauge in
through the window, take the car out and floor it, and see if the pressure
falters. It should hold 13 PSI more or less no matter what the driver does. If
it doesn't, Bob's your uncle, as someone said here last week. Good luck, and
keep us posted.

Dick Benjamin

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: lester@cnwl.igs.net

Sent: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:03:49 +0000

Members:

Would any member know where I could find a used Automatic idle speed motor. My
car is idling very fast and we can't get it to idle at the proper idle speed.
This may be the try before switching to carb.

Hoping some one can help

Cliff

Subject: Stunning 81 the first 500 miles

From: Aholland19 <Aholland19@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:16:30 EDT

Well I have been driving my 81 for about 3 weeks now and so far so good. I
have noticed a few things about it since I started driving it again. The fuel
pump seems to be quite a bit louder than I remember. A deep steady hum clearly
heard anytime the radios off. It also wanders a little on the freeway. About
75 or so. All in all it seems to be dependable around town and in heavy
traffic. Sometimes it will stall after a harder than normal stop but it always
starts right back up. The idle is rough and seems to fluctuate at times. If
anyone has had these things happen to there EFI Imperial after a long " sit "
in the driveway let me know. All advice is appreciated.

Tony Holland

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:02:32 -0700

I may have one in the stuff one of the IML members sent me for the IML EFI
"lending library". I will test it and report. Have you adjusted the mechanical
linkage to try to get the idle speed down and have you checked to see that the
throttle stop contact is good. Also, test to see if stepping on the brake
pedal affects the idle speed.

If the one I have is good, I will exchange it with yours and try to fix yours,
if it turns out yours is really bad. Question: does it ever move? You can rest
a finger on one end of the linkage and feel it "breathing" if it is trying to
work. If you put a little pressure on the linkage, it should try to resist
your finger, to keep the idle at whatever set point it is trying to maintain.
If you feel it move, the motor is probably OK and you have another problem.

Is this the car that has a non-stock exhaust system on it?

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: lester@cnwl.igs.net

Sent: Monday, April 13, 1998 11:03 AM

Members:

Would any member know where I could find a used Automatic idle speed motor. My
car is idling very fast and we can't get it to idle at the proper idle speed.
This may be the try before switching to carb. Hoping some one can help
Cliff
Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI References:

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:06:41 -0400

Is this the car that has a non-stock exhaust system on it?

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

No, that would be me,
Carmine's '83.

Carmine F.

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: lester@cnwl.igs.net

Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:02:27 +0000

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

Sent: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:02:32 -0700

Dick

My name is Cliff Thompson And I'm the one that wrote regarding a Idle speed
motor. Dick, I just found and bought a 81 parts car that is carburated. I
picked it up yesterday and drove it home, this was the first time that I had a
chance to drive one that was carburated and was quite impressed with the way
it operated. I think, Dick, that I'm going to have my car converted. In this
part of Ontario you can't find a mechanic to work on these cars. With this
parts car that is carburated, I have all the parts to convert. About six
months back I asked and received the steps one has to take when converting,
would you please take the time to send this to me again. Dick, when bringing
this parts car home, I checked the dash and every thing worked

Cliff Thompson

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:26:20 -0700

Cliff;

I do have a car that has the factory conversion, but I have never actually
converted one, so I will not be much help there. Someone else may have posted
a detailed procedure, but that was not me, and I do not have it archived. I
think you will find it pretty straightforward however, and since you have one
to look at for comparison, I think you can figure it out.

Possibly Jeff Gaurino will offer more on this subject. I'll wait to see if he
picks up on this thread.

I'm interested in your comment that everything works on the dash. I take it
you include the MPG readout? Yours is the only converted car I have heard of
in which the MPG readout stays working.

You know, I guess, that you have to change the intake manifold, add a
mechanical fuel pump (there is a blank off plate on the timing cover on the
EFI car, but the standard 318 pump will bolt right up) and of course all the
EFI and CCC stuff comes off, along with the relays, ballasts, ASDM, etc. The
factory conversion also included a different dash, and fuel system including
the tank, but I think you can work around that requirement with a little
creativity.

Good luck on this, Cliff. Please, PLEASE, do not damage or discard any of the
EFI stuff. Anything you do not want to keep in case someone wants to put the
car back to original someday, let us on the IML know and we will arrange to
take if off your hands. You can offer it for sale, and whatever doesn't sell,
I'd be happy to pay the shipping to add it to the IML "lending library" which
I am trying to assemble, of all known tested good parts to use for exchange
pieces for people to troubleshoot their cars.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: lester@cnwl.igs.net

Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 10:02 PM

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:02:32

Dick My name is Cliff Thompson And I'm the one that wrote regarding a Idle
speed motor. Dick, I just found and bought a 81 parts car that is carburated.
I picked it up yesterday and drove it home, this was the first time that I had
a chance to drive one that was carburated and was quite impressed with the way
it operated. I think, Dick, that I'm going to have my car converted. In this
part of Ontario you can't find a mechanic to work on these cars. With this
parts car that is carburated, I have all the parts to convert. About six
months back I asked and received the steps one has to take when converting,
would you please take the time to send this to me again. Dick, when bringing
this parts car home, I checked the dash and every thing worked Cliff Thompson
Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: Stude1966 <Stude1966@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:26:53 EDT

I converted one several years ago using a 83 Mirada setup, I was able to get
everything working with the original dash except the MPG.

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:47:09 -0700

Yes, it is an unresolved mystery why Chrysler supplied a replacement dash for
the conversion package. No one has put forth a reason, as far as I know.

Most of the converted cars, (as far as I know, actually all but the one that
surfaced this week here) have MPG readouts that do not work, and that includes
the ones converted with the factory kit.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: Stude1966 <Stude1966@aol.com
To: Multiple recipients of list mailing-list <mailing-
list@Imperialclub.com

Sent: Thursday, April 16, 1998 8:26 PM

I converted one several years ago using a 83 Mirada setup, I was able to get
everything working with the original dash except the MPG.

Subject: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: lester@cnwl.igs.net <lester@cnwl.igs.net

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 9:49 PM

Dick

My name is Cliff Thompson And I'm the one that wrote regarding a Idle speed
motor. Dick, I just found and bought a 81 parts car that is carburated. I
picked it up yesterday and drove it home, this was the first time that I had a
chance to drive one that was carburated and was quite impressed with the way
it operated. I think, Dick, that I'm going to have my car converted. In this
part of Ontario you can't find a mechanic to work on these cars. With this
parts car that is carburated, I have all the parts to convert. About six
months back I asked and received the steps one has to take when converting,
would you please take the time to send this to me again. Dick, when bringing
this parts car home, I checked the dash and every thing worked

Cliff Thompson

Subject: Fw: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:43:25 -0700

The factory package included a replacement dash, so all the cars converted
that way had their odometers replaced, thus the zero mileage. It is
interesting that the MPG readout worked, I assumed it must have been
engineered to work after the conversion, I just had not heard of one that did.

Thanks for the info.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

:Yes, it is an unresolved mystery why Chrysler supplied a replacement dash for
the conversion package. No one has put forth a reason, as far as I know. Most
of the converted cars, (as far as I know, actually all but the one that
surfaced this week here) have MPG readouts that do not work, and that includes
the ones converted with the factory kit.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net) had an '82 that had the factory conversion.
All the trip computer stuff worked including the MPG readouts. As far as I
know, the dash was not replaced (I was not the owner when it was converted.)
Inside the drivers side door jamb was a Chrysler sticker showing the date of
the conversion and the mileage of the car at the time. For some reason the
conversion included resetting the odometer. (The odometer asterisk was
illuminated.)

Christopher Conway jcc@majure.com

Subject: Fw: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:28:08 -0700

OK, thanks Jeff. That's at least 3 of them that I have heard of recently that
work, so I guess I will change my opinion, and see what the heck gives with
mine. I'll stick a scope on the EFI car and see what goes through the 20K (?)
resistor to the dash, it is probably just the chopped signal from the flow
meter, which I would guess is counted down in the dash unit. Why they used
such a high impedance connection, I cannot fathom. If it is TTL logic, which
they seemed to be using, a 5K resistor would have been adequate to protect
things, and a whole lot less likely to be screwed up by contamination.

On another subject, the cruise control on my Chevy PU has been acting goofy
lately, and I discovered that a mud splash had left a deposit all over the
circuit board, it somehow got through the packaging to the component side of
the board. Searching around for a good PC board cleaner, I tried various
things I had handy, and I found that Spray on Brake Cleaner smells, acts, and
works just like the MEK we used to use for cleanup of PC boards before the
OHSA people outlawed it. File in your bag of tricks......

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: Fw: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: Jeff Guarino <jguarino@pangea.ca

Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 10:20 AM

Hi Dick.

The mpg readout on the white 81 w/moonroof I have works fine. This is the car
I bought last year. It is a factory conversion with 30,000 miles. Jeff Guarino

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Fw: 1981 Imperial EFI

From: Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 9:52 PM

The factory package included a replacement dash, so all the cars converted
that way had their odometers replaced, thus the zero mileage. It is
interesting that the MPG readout worked, I assumed it must have been
engineered to work after the conversion, I just had not heard of one that did.
Thanks for the info.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net):

Yes, it is an unresolved mystery why Chrysler supplied a replacement dash for
the conversion package. No one has put forth a reason, as far as I know. Most
of the converted cars, (as far as I know, actually all but the one that
surfaced this week here) have MPG readouts that do not work, and that includes
the ones converted with the factory kit. Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net) I
had an '82 that had the factory conversion. All the trip computer stuff worked
including the MPG readouts. As far as I know, the dash was not replaced (I was
not the owner when it was converted.) Inside the drivers side door jamb was a
Chrysler sticker showing the date of the conversion and the mileage of the car
at the time. For some reason the conversion included resetting the odometer.
(The odometer asterisk was illuminated.)

Christopher Conwayjcc@majure.com

Subject: 81 EFI Fixes

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:21:14 EDT

Dick and all:

Thanks for the advice on 81 EFI. The 81 seems to be running pretty well now.
It has not died since I grounded the ASDM to the alternator as you suggested.
I also replaced the coolant temperature sensor with the NAPA part. The
resistance of the NAPA part was 950 ohms when cold and only 1400 Ohms when the
thermostat opened compared to 1K and 1.7 K on the one I removed. I cannot tell
any difference in drivability or performance.

Acceleration still is not good but I can live with it. My remaining problem
(assuming the reliability is OK) is the hard hot starting. It starts pretty
good when cold (cranks a few seconds then starts and usually keeps running).
When it is hot it will crank a long time (I haven' t it) but it seems that
just about the time I am about to overheat the starter it will start. Cycling
the ignition switch doesn't seem to help. Sometimes when I cycle it, it will
fire almost immediately then die before the long crank begins.

You mentioned a tantalum capacitor the I assume times the purge cycle. Is this
bled down by a resistor? It seems that maybe this capacitor stays charges and
causes a very short duration purge time. Does that make sense? My background
is Mechanical Engineering so please forgive the dumb questions regarding
electronics. Also, I am considering the purchase of a new CCC but I am not
sure what effect this will have on starting. Anyone have any experience with
the new CCC? Does it improve acceleration?

One other question. Is there a location where I can check the output of the 23
volt power supply. Sometimes it seems that if I had just two more volts
everything would be fine. Perhaps this is another silly ME assumption.

We are getting there. Any comments from anyone would be much appreciated. It
seems that Carl, Carmine, Jeff and you are those with the greatest experience.

Thanks again for the discussion.

Rolland Westra

Subject: 81 EFI Fixes

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:39:16 -0700

Adding to what Jeff Gaurino has just posted, it is really easy to clean out
the nozzles, as the whole nozzle assembly comes off with two screws and one
fuel fitting. I have found it very common that one or the other nozzles is not
spraying a good stream. I just take the assembly out, pull the top pressure
valve assembly off the nozzle weldment (two more screws), and put the
carburetor cleaner squirt can plastic straw right into the fuel passage and
squirt. You can see easily whether or not all of the nozzles are clear, and if
not, you can push the cleaner in reverse back through the tubing until you
flush the offending particle of crud out. The orifices are really small, it
does not take much to plug one up, even a partial obstruction will goof up the
pattern.

If you want to observe the flow, you can temporarily run a 12 volt wire to the
control fuel pump on the HSA. Pull the two wire plug off the pump motor, and
check with your VOM to see which one is grounded. The other one is driven by
the electronics to various voltages in accordance with the CCC's required fuel
flow. If you disconnect the pump harness, you can do this with no danger of
feeding voltage back into the fuel pump driver, which might be hard on things.
One side of the pump harness is ground, the other is hot, so take two clip
leads and connect the appropriate terminals for just a second, while you look
at the spray stream. This pumps a lot of fuel in a hurry, so don't linger at
the task.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

From: Jeff Guarino <jguarino@pangea.ca

spray patterns in the hydraulic plate can get screwed up because of leaks etc.
in the fuel bars. I haven’t checked my cars for this yet but you can't see the
spray pattern with the air cleaner cover on and the car won't run with it off.
There is a way to bypass so the airliner cover can be removed. I'm making a
cover with glass dinner plate siliconed to it.

Subject: Fuel pump for '81-'83

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:54:21 -0400

Are there any reasonable sources for a new fuel pump? Mine still works, but
it's loud. From what I hear, most any used one will be just as loud.

Has anyone ever tried to rebuild one or substitute something newer?

I could also use a new fuel sock, any leads?

Carmine F.

Subject: I like my '83 Imperial...

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:21:29 -0400

Just finished driving from Detroit to Boston, and back in my '83. (Went to
look at the '81 FS on the list).

Happy and proud to report the following....

Cruised mostly @ 80-85+? MPH with the A/C on most of the way. Used no oil
(which surprised me, because I know the valve stem seals are history).
Averaged 21.6 MPG w/87 octane. When driving 65, got 26 MPG. (But what FUN is
that?)

However, I did notice this...

Now that I have the climate control up and running again (retrofitted to
R134a, cross fingers), I notice that upon hard acceleration, the air which
should be blowing from the dash vents starts coming out of the defrost vents.
Obviously I have a vacuum leak related to my HVAC system. This could explain
my still unsolved sluggish acceleration and unstable idle. DUH!

It's a typical mistake to blame the most complicated part of a system, while
overlooking the basics. So I apologize to my EFI system.

Now, before I start searching under that mass of hoses and wires that hides
the engine, I'll ask the group...

Anyone else run into this problem? I'm wondering if there's an especially weak
point in the system where I should begin troubleshooting. I'm pretty sure that
I could rule out the control head. I just replaced it, and visually it appears
fine, I also hear no "hissing" form inside the car. Any especially problem
HVAC parts?

Carmine F.

Subject: 81-83 FI Imperials

From: R Westra <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:33:32 EDT

I support your idea that a diagnostic guide would be very helpful to us 81-83
EFI owners. My 81 is working quite well now except for occasional hard
starting. I don't have the expertise that you and Dick have on these cars but
I do have a long experience with cars in general, specifically Chrysler
products. I have also learned something about the 81-83 EFI cars by trial and
error (mostly error) on my 81. I would be willing to assist wherever my
limited expertise can be utilized. I live in Illinois and have been retired
for two years so I have a fairly flexible schedule.

Again I applaud your plan to prepare a diagnostic guide. Let me know if I can
help.

Rolland O. Westra rwestra@aol.com 815 226 8046

Subject: I like my '83 Imperial...

From: "Richard W. Gebhard" <gebhard@EC.Rockwell.COM

Sent: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:20:07 -0400

However, I did notice this...Now that I have the climate control up and
running again (retrofitted to R134a, cross fingers), I notice that upon hard
acceleration, the air which should be blowing from the dash vents starts
coming out of the defrost vents. Obviously I have a vacuum leak related to my
HVAC system. This could explain my still unsolved sluggish acceleration and
unstable idle. DUH! My 75 HVAC has operated like that for so long, I think
that it may be the way the thing works. My truck does it too, but not as
easily.

Most Mopar’s have the HVAC doors 'park' in the defrost position. When vacuum
disappears, that's where they go. Auto-Temp systems include a vacuum reservoir
under the hood that is used to regulate manifold vacuum applied to the vent
doors.

Long shot -- but check the diaphragms on the vent door actuators, I've had em
leak.

RWG

Subject: I like my '83 Imperial... References:

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:44:11 -0400

My 75 HVAC has operated like that for so long, I think that it may be the way
the thing works. My truck does it too, but not as easily.

True enough, it's really a problem on 'lil 4-cylinder Mopar’s, since they have
to work a lot harder to accelerate, and therefore take longer to re-build
vacuum. But they aren't supposed to work this way, especially a regal and
beautiful '75 Imperial. (had a '77 NY'er, and it worked right). Unless you
were just kidding, in which case I say haha.

Most Mopar’s have the HVAC doors 'park' in the defrost position. When vacuum
disappears, that's where they go. Auto-Temp systems include a vacuum reservoir
under the hood that is used to regulate manifold vacuum applied to the vent
doors.

Long shot -- but check the diaphragms on the vent door actuators, I've had em
leak.

Thanks, I'll look. Been so busy I haven't even had time to open the hood. ;-)

Carmine F.

Subject: 81-83 FI Imperials

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:11:56 -0700

That’s great that you have sorted out all your problems with your beautiful
car.

The people who I always think of when trying to put together an answer to
technical questions on the EFI system are Bob Harris, Jeff Gaurino, Frank
Cannavale III. There are quite a few other people on the IML who have some
knowledge of the foibles of these cars, as you might well imagine since we
have 78 of them on the IML, if I remember Tony's last posting on the subject.

Bob Harris has some contacts within Chrysler Corp and their vendor for the
test sets, and has done a lot of work on his own cars, so his advice is
knowledgeable and practical.

Jeff Gaurino is the source of all the information we have on the detailed
electrical schematics of the various circuit boards, due to his spending hours
and hours melting and scraping goo off the boards and tracing the circuits,
plus making measurements of electrical parameter.

Frank C. is an all around good head, although not an EE, he has always made
cogent and germane comments based on his experience with his own car, which he
bought new, and has struggled to keep running all these years.

I have done some repairs on the individual circuit boards, and have been busy
trying to accumulate a "lending library" of EFI components for IML members to
use when trouble shooting their cars. So far, we have had donated an HSA, with
power module, control pump and hydraulic assemblies, and fuel flow meter. I do
not yet have an ASDM, or a CCC, or an in tank pump. I am determined not to
spend my own money to accumulate these parts, as I feel my time in testing and
repairing them is contribution enough. So far, everything donated that had a
problem when received, I have been able to fix and test, but I am not
confident that I will be able to keep batting 1000 on this. I have yet to try
to fix a CCC or an air flow meter.

As for volunteering to organize, edit and post all the info on these cars that
has been submitted in the year and a half that I have been a member, Tony and
I discussed my doing this at one time, but I have not done anything with the
assignment, due to a total lack of understanding as to how to proceed, and my
belief that others with more computer savvy would be better at it than I,
while I can probably make the most significant contribution to the IML by
continuing to field technical questions that I have some experience or
knowledge about, and let others manage the web site files. As far as I am
concerned, the assignment is still unfilled, and definitely would be valuable
contribution from whoever was willing to tackle it. Perhaps Tony will have a
comment also.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Dick, I think it is time for us to put together a diagnostic guide for these
cars. I have some knowledge I have not had time to share. I am aware that
there are other people in the Imperial Club who also have valuable knowledge,
but I do not have their names and e-mail address. Can we start by listing
people beside myself and you who may have something to contribute? I will look
for such a listing from you, and then contact these member to determine who
else might be able to contribute. I am aware that Tony has a mass of messages
on these systems that goes back years. We need someone to volunteer to
organize these material so that they can be accessed.

Carl Baty San Diego

Subject: 81-83 FI Imperials

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:52:05 EDT

Dick et aI

I am back home after extended time away. I picked up your comments about the
81-83 sedans and the mention that owners either love or hate them. I agree
with the comment but I no long see any reason for people to hate them. Beyond
what we already know about the fuel injection system, I now carry an entire
spare fuel injection system in the trunk with tools to replace a faltering
one. I have timed myself in full replacement at 1 hour and 10 minutes
including sensors. I have verified that the back up system is fully
functional.

Dick, I think it is time for us to put together a diagnostic guide for these
cars. I have some knowledge I have not had time to share. I am aware that
there are other people in the Imperial Club who also have valuable knowledge,
but I do not have their names and e-mail address. Can we start by listing
people beside myself and you who may have something to contribute? I will look
for such a listing from you, and then contact these member to determine who
else might be able to contribute.

I am aware that Tony has a mass of messages on these systems that goes back
years. We need someone to volunteer to organize these material so that they
can be accessed.

I no longer see any reason for anyone with 81-83 fuel injected Imperials to
hate their cars. My 81 fuel injected Imperial (Beauty) is logging about 500
miles per week as I travel between LA and San Diego in great comfort and
style.

Carl Baty San Diego

Subject: Further troubleshooting the '83 EFI Imperial

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:19:01 -0400

Again, just looking for some ideas here before I go tearing stuff apart.

I'm still trying to find my low-speed stumble problem. As I mentioned, there
is a possibility of a vacuum leak (During conditions of low engine vacuum,
such as passing, the HVAC system goes from whatever mode it's in to defrost.
When vacuum is restored, foot off the accelerator, the HVAC returns to the
original setting). I've poked around under the dash and hood looking for
anything obvious, but even when spraying vacuum connections and lines with
carb. cleaner, I can find no change in idle. Occasionally, the idle feels a
bit "rough" anyway. However, as those of you with EFI systems know, it's
really hard to get at much with the air cleaner on, so I might be missing a
leak.

What was the procedure to make the car run without the air cleaner fastened?

I have done the following....

New plugs, cap, rotor, & wires. Adjusted the idle back to original specs, (as
close as possible due to rough, erratic idle) Set the timing back to the
proper setting, following FSM procedure. Re-programmed the computer, following
FSM procedure. Cleaned the injector bars

The car runs great when cruising or light acceleration, it got 22 MPG last
week during a trip to Boston from Detroit @ 80 MPH with the A/C on, so I don't
suspect any serious problems (valve timing, bad computer, etc).

The "symptoms" aStumbles under hard acceleration, it will even "pop" and then
stall if you put the pedal down too fast. This problem occurs regardless of
load, even if the car is in park and you jab the throttle, it will stumble or
die. Hard acceleration at high speed is normal. Idle quality could be a bit
better. These symptoms sound (to me) like the classic vacuum leak or bad
accelerator pump on a carburated car. But before I get too deep, and therefore
render the car undrivable, I'd like to see if any of the EFI experts have been
down this road before.

I'd really like to get this one little mechanical problem fixed. I'm anxious
to get started on a fresh paint job so that I can enjoy the car through the
summer, but I'm not going to lean all over freshly painted fenders trying to
fix this problem! Please help my faded Imperial look as beautiful as it
should!

Carmine F.

Subject: Further troubleshooting the '83 EFI Imperial

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:48:39 EDT

Carmine F

I think that it is possible that what you are experiencing is normal as part
of the system to provide more power to the engine when it is needed. I have
experienced this on other cars and it was intended. I should have an answer
about this for you by Saturday. Carl Baty San Diego

Subject: Further troubleshooting the '83 EFI Imperial

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:15:47 -0700

Carmine;

The problem with the vacuum powered air direction flaps relaxing toward some
unenergized state is indeed, as you have already figured out, a problem with
low vacuum. These cars have a vacuum reservoir behind the right headlight that
may not be doing its job, or your engine may be tired enough that pulling hard
really drops the vacuum more severely than the designers allowed for when the
reservoir was sized.

Since you are suffering other symptoms of vacuum leaks, I think you would be
well advised to take the air cleaner off the HSA so you can see the vacuum
"Tee" that comes out of the back of the intake manifold, and plug every line
that comes from it to see if it cleans up your idle. It would also be nice to
know what your idle vacuum is. At sea level, or thereabouts, you should be
pulling at least 19", at idle. If you are not, there is definitely something
wrong. Many of the possible leaks will be masked by the EFI system, and of
course would be inconsequential at anything above idle, since the main air
flow would be so much greater, this is consistent with your good results at
high speed touring. You need to measure your vacuum at idle, and track down
all the many places where it can be leaking. These include the items connected
to the Tee, plus the PCV system, the EGR valve, the throttle body gaskets, and
the air cleaner and HSA gasketing. Once the idle vacuum is known to be up to
snuff, lets see what if any problems remain.

The poor throttle response at initial tip-in can be caused by an out of
calibration Throttle Position Sensor, or by an incorrect EFI coolant sensor,
in addition to calibration problems in the power module, fuel flow meter, and
control fuel pump, and of course, a large vacuum leak. This may be very hard
to find. One of my cars acts this way once in a while, then cures itself
mysteriously. I have never been able to correlate the symptom with anything.
Just nature of the beast.

To run the car with the air cleaner open, you need to fool the CCC into
thinking the car is cranking continuously. The way to do this is to pull the
small brown wire out of the multiwire connector to the starter relay near the
left hood hinge, and prepare a clip lead to connect that wire to the +12 post
of the battery, at the same time you start the engine. DO NOT CONNECT THE WIRE
UNTIL THE STARTER IS CRANKING. All the time this wire is connected, the EFI
system will be delivering fuel into the intake manifold, you can get a big
boom or even hydrostatic lock, which is even more dangerous, if you leave it
on there with the engine not running.

By the way, the engine will run, but not very well, and only at low RPM in
this condition, since the air flow meter is ignored during "cranking". The
only reason to do this is to verify that the fuel rails and their connections
are all ship shape, and all 8 of the fuel nozzles are squirting fuel. You
can't learn much else from this test.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net))

Subject: Further troubleshooting the '83 EFI Imperial

From: t3176@flash.net

To: Multiple recipients of list mailing-list <mailing-
list@Imperialclub.com

Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 2:19 PM

Again, just looking for some ideas here before I go tearing stuff apart.

I'm still trying to find my low-speed stumble problem. As I mentioned, there
is a possibility of a vacuum leak (During conditions of low engine vacuum,
such as passing, the HVAC system goes from whatever mode it's in to defrost.

When vacuum is restored, foot off the accelerator, the HVAC returns to the
original setting). I've poked around under the dash and hood looking for
anything obvious, but even when spraying vacuum connections and lines with
carb. cleaner, I can find no change in idle.

Occasionally, the idle feels a bit "rough" anyway. However, as those of you
with EFI systems know, it's really hard to get at much with the air cleaner
on, so I might be missing a leak. What was the procedure to make the car run
without the air cleaner fastened?

I have done the following....New plugs, cap, rotor, & wires. Adjusted the idle
back to original specs, (as close as possible due to rough, erratic idle) Set
the timing back to the proper setting, following FSM procedure. Re-programmed
the computer, following FSM procedure. Cleaned the injector bars.

The car runs great when cruising or light acceleration, it got 22 MPG last
week during a trip to Boston from Detroit @ 80 MPH with the A/C on, so I don't
suspect any serious problems (valve timing, bad computer, etc).

The "symptoms" aStumbles under hard acceleration, it will even "pop" and then
stall if you put the pedal down too fast. This problem occurs regardless of
load, even if the car is in park and you jab the throttle, it will stumble or
die.

Hard acceleration at high speed is normal. Idle quality could be a bit better.
These symptoms sound (to me) like the classic vacuum leak or bad accelerator
pump on a carburated car.

But before I get too deep, and therefore render the car undrivable, I'd like
to see if any of the EFI experts have been down this road before.

I'd really like to get this one little mechanical problem fixed. I'm anxious
to get started on a fresh paint job so that I can enjoy the car through the
summer, but I'm not going to lean all over freshly painted fenders trying to
fix this problem! Please help my faded Imperial look as beautiful as it
should!

Carmine F.
Subject: '82 EFI HELP--PLEASE!!!

From: Eddenbud (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:26:01 EDT

Tell me, when you were trying to restart, did you press the accelerator all
the way to the floor for a while, while cranking (to clear out any flooding)?

Dick,

I knew I could count on you for some useful insights into this problem. To
make matters even more complicated, yes I did try flooring the accelerator,
which did cause the car to restart once or twice, but was then unsuccessful
after that.

I won't be up in Cincinnati for a few weeks to further investigate these
troubles, but I will try your suggestions, and let you know how they work out.

<<Have you considered moving to Minneapolis? How about International Falls?

BRRRRRRRR. I don't want to live anywhere north of Interstate 10!!!

Thanks Again,

ED F

Subject: '82 EFI HELP--PLEASE!!!

Sent: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:14:56 -0700

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Ed;

After I sent off my tome on the EFI coolant sensor, I had another thought,
after rereading your posting, I focused on the time it would not restart. This
may have still been the EFI coolant sensor problem I mentioned, but it seems
rather a severe result for that failure. Tell me, when you were trying to
restart, did you press the accelerator all the way to the floor for a while,
while cranking (to clear out any flooding)? If you did, and it still did not
start, I am getting suspicious about your EGR valve or its controls.

If this is the problem, we will have to do some detective work to figure out
whether the valve itself is acting up, or the passages in the intake manifold
are gunked up with carbon (very likely), or the control devices that tell the
EGR valve when to operate are involved.

Lets start by disabling the valve itself, as follows: Next time you can get
into a situation where you think it may act up, pull the control vacuum line
off the EGR valve (under the HSA, right side of intake manifold, right about
even with the throttle body, close to the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), it
has a little restrictor valve in the line, it is a very small vacuum line) and
plug the vacuum line. See if this makes any difference at all.

I'll stop there for now, and try to think it through a little farther.

Have you considered moving to Minneapolis? How about International Falls?

Dick Benjamin

This past week, I could not even get it restarted

Subject: '82 EFI HELP--PLEASE!!!

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:58:53 -0700

Ed;

I think the 81 set is the only one available, but I am not aware of any big
differences.

Your problem sounds like a failed or disconnected EFI coolant sensor. This is
the sensor that has a two wire connector, with the connection arranged in an
"L" shape. It is located just to the left of the water outlet connection to
the radiator hose on the top of the intake manifold, at the front left-hand
(Drivers side) of the engine. The connector will pull off fairly easily. The
sensor is an odd size, and I would recommend being armed with a deep, thinwall
socket that fits very well, and a breaker bar or large drive ratchet so you
can get it out without too much drama. Since it threads into the water jacket,
you will lose coolant while you are changing it, so be prepared for that, and
have the new one at the ready.

If you have access to a VOM, you might want to just check it before you go to
all this trouble, it might not be the problem's cause. To check it, remove the
connector from it, and measure the resistance between the two copper prongs on
the sensor, you should get a reading of around 900 to 1000 Ohms with the
engine cold, and much higher with the engine up to operating temp, in the 2000
to 3000 OHM range. There should be no contact to the engine ground (Very high
resistance, over 100,000 OHMs.) If resistance you measure is in this range,
this is not your problem, so save your money. In that case, check carefully
the connector and the wires in the harness to make sure you are getting a good
connection.

IML member Carl Baty discovered that NAPA carries a close equivalent, which I
believe he is using successfully in his San Diego car, so it is close enough
that it will get you from cold start to medium warm temperatures, if not the
whole range. I believe he said it was their part no. TS 5008. They also should
have a socket to use when removing it, such are specially made for sensors and
senders and switches, about the size and shape that a regular 12 point will
fit, but not too well. I forget at the moment whether it is a 1" or 1 1/16"
that fits it fairly well, but the special socket is the one to have in your
tool box for many uses. Mine is 1/2" drive. I did have a problem with one of
the sensors being so corroded into its hole that it twisted apart when trying
to remove it, and had to be picked out in pieces. Not fun.

Chrysler dealers with a helpful counter man can also look it up in their part
finder system, I was able to find two on the shelf at a dealer in northern CA,
but when received, one had been opened and did not work, the other one is
fine. They get $40 apiece for them, and there are no refunds on bad electrical
parts, so I got stuck. The NAPA sensor is much cheaper, and readily available,
so I would try that.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: '82 EFI HELP--PLEASE!!!

From: Eddenbud (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Saturday, May 23, 1998 7:57 AM

Dear IML Friends,

I've been keeping a file of all of the EFI-related messages on the IML, but
none seem to address the problem I am encountering.

While I've owned my '81 for 5 years now, it is carb.-converted, so I have
little experience with the EFI which is still on my '82 that I bought last
year. Although I live in Florida, I keep this car in Cincinnati as I am based
there and commute from Orlando. Now that the warm weather has returned to the
Midwest, so have my car's troubles:

When the car is cold and the ambient temp. is cold, he runs great (He's from
Minneapolis, so maybe after 16 years, he got accustomed to it up there!!).
Even with the warm weather now in place, the car starts right up when the
motor is cold. However, once warmed up, the motor idles unevenly and stalls.

This past week, I could not even get it restarted and had to call AAA for a
tow. The problem is that since, I don't live there full-time, I have not been
able to find a shop to work on the EFI (a problem all 81-83 owners are
familiar with). Also, since my home is in Florida, I only have limited tools
and equipment in Cincinnati to work on the car. Ideally I will find a Chrysler
dealer with the original test equipment in the area (Jake Sweeney Chrysler is
listed in my owner's manual as an original Imperial dealer), but any help in
troubleshooting on my own would be greatly appreciated.

I've recently changed all of the filters, plugs, wires, cap & rotor, oxygen
sensor, and some leaking vacuum lines. There is a considerable amount of dirt
and dust accumulations under the hood, and I plan to clean up all of the
connections with electrical contact cleaner as well, but I really don't expect
that to correct the problem. Has anyone got a hint as to where I should begin
my troubleshooting??

Also, I have the full set of '81 service manuals, but not the '82 set. Can I
use the '81 data, or were there any important changes from '81 to '82? Thanks
in advance.

ED F.

Subject: Further troubleshooting the '83 EFI Imperial

From: GRADLTD <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:35:03 EDT

I had a chance to check manual on this yesterday. The system has two
electronic switches which control vacuum as well are the vacuum system itself.
I will copy and send the pages of the manual which show the locations of all
components if you provide me with an address. Carl - San Diego

Subject: '82 EFI HELP--PLEASE!!!

From: Eddenbud (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:57:37 EDT

Dear IML Friends,

I've been keeping a file of all of the EFI-related messages on the IML, but
none seem to address the problem I am encountering. While I've owned my '81
for 5 years now, it is carb.-converted, so I have little experience with the
EFI which is still on my '82 that I bought last year.

Although I live in Florida, I keep this car in Cincinnati as I am based there
and commute from Orlando. Now that the warm weather has returned to the
Midwest, so have my car's troubles: When the car is cold and the ambient temp.
is cold, he runs great (He's from Minneapolis, so maybe after 16 years, he got
accustomed to it up there!!). Even with the warm weather now in place, the car
starts right up when the motor is cold. However, once warmed up, the motor
idles unevenly and stalls.

This past week, I could not even get it restarted and had to call AAA for a
tow. The problem is that since, I don't live there full-time, I have not been
able to find a shop to work on the EFI (a problem all 81-83 owners are
familiar with). Also, since my home is in Florida, I only have limited tools
and equipment in Cincinnati to work on the car.

Ideally I will find a Chrysler dealer with the original test equipment in the
area (Jake Sweeney Chrysler is listed in my owner's manual as an original
Imperial dealer), but any help in troubleshooting on my own would be greatly
appreciated. I've recently changed all of the filters, plugs, wires, cap &
rotor, oxygen sensor, and some leaking vacuum lines. There is a considerable
amount of dirt and dust accumulations under the hood, and I plan to clean up
all of the connections with electrical contact cleaner as well, but I really
don't expect that to correct the problem. Has anyone got a hint as to where I
should begin my troubleshooting??

Also, I have the full set of '81 service manuals, but not the '82 set. Can I
use the '81 data, or were there any important changes from '81 to '82?

Thanks in advance.

ED F.

Subject: Further troubleshooting the '83 EFI Imperial

From: "Jeff Traylor" <jstraylor@mindspring.com

Sent: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:53:16 -0400

Hello to all,

Carmine, you just described the problems that I am having with my Imperial to
a 'T'. It does not seem to be making any kind of difference to the overall
driveability of the car, just annoying to occasionally stall out at a traffic
light. (Imagine doing that at the intersection of Michigan Ave. & Outer
Drive). I would be very interested in your final solution to the problem as it
is probably identical (or nearly so) to my problem.

From my personal experience, listen to Dick B's ideas, he is usually right
when it comes to the engines on these cars. I guess that he is the voice of
experience.

Jeff Traylor '82 Frank Sinatra

PS Anyone else with a FS edition - do you still have the tape that came with
the car? If so could you please provide a listing, in order, of the songs that
were on the tape. I'm dying to recreate the cassette and be able to listen to
the music that came with my car.

Subject: Losing patience with '83 Imperial

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:46:09 -0400

First of all, I'd like to thank Dick B. for giving me some good leads in
troubleshooting my problem. I know that typing that much tech. stuff can be a
pain, but thanks Dick. You must be a Hell of a nice guy to go through all that
trouble.

Second, that being said, I'm still having problems.

Checked vacuum @ idle, it was around 17 in. Of course, idle was around 600-650
RPM, so I think it would probably pull 19 in. at 750 RPM. Idle fluctuates a
little bit too much to really get a good reading.

Plugged all vacuum lines @ manifold, no difference. Although the vacuum line
"sticker" on the fender shows a reserve canister, I'll be danged if I can find
it. (I was hoping to at least find the source of my HVAC problem, if not the
acceleration stumble).

Here is another symptom, maybe this will help with diagnosis.

As I mentioned earlier, the car will not accelerate smoothly unless you treat
the accel. pedal like it's made of fine crystal (subtle Imperial reference).
If you give the accelerator a quick jab, the engine will stumble, sputter or
stall. This condition exists whether I'm idling in park or drive (no-load or
with a load). When I do this (quick jabs at the gas) while trouble shooting in
the driveway, the car will return to idle, but fluctuate WILDLY. Idle jumps
from 400-800 RPM on it's own for a few seconds, then it usually dies. It's as
if the engine is ready to stall, then idle speed motor does its best to
prevent stalling, running the idle up & down.

Oddly, the car will respond to W.O.T. very well as long as you are rolling at
30+ MPH.

Now I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to drive this thing like a Hot-
Rod, I do not expect this car to burn rubber away from every light. But I'm
getting a little sick of waiting for HUGE gaps in traffic whenever I need to
turn left or pull out of a driveway. In fact, what really sucks is that I'm
afraid to let anyone else drive the car. I'm used to it, but I'd feel like
crap if somebody who was accustomed to a properly running car was to turn left
in front of a truck only to have the engine sputter or stall. And that's a
shame because...

Other than the acceleration problem, the car is a beautiful driver. Handles
nice, rides smooth, mega-quiet.

I've got to admit it's really tempting to just pull the whole engine and
install a nicely built 360. But part of me doesn't want to do that. The car is
so original and clean I really don't want to alter it, plus I love the
gadgets! I have a feeling that this is a simple problem, but it's starting to
seem simpler to just change everything over to a carb.

Is anybody with more time on their hands interested in it? To give you an idea
of the condition, I ignored this problem when I bought it because I was so
blown away by the condition of the body/interior. It still wears its original
paint and stripes (Glacier blue). Paint is faded, but it has no rust worth
mentioning, (small paint chips, etc.) No body damage. The gray cloth interior
is also in excellent shape, always well cared for and showing almost no wear.
Even the aluminum rims still shine. Chrome is very nice, no peeling, just the
slightest bit dull. I'd have to get around $3200 for it to cover what I paid
for it + 4 new ball joints, new calipers, pads, hoses, exhaust and the
repaired A/C system. Actually, I'd be losing a little.

If I can't sell it and I do convert it, is anyone interested in the complete
motor/trans/wiring/EFI set-up? I'd like to get back some of what I'll spend
for a new motor, so I can't give it away. Otherwise the set-up will be sold
with the converted car when I'm ready to part with the car.

As you may have guessed by my earlier post regarding the sale of my '69
LeBaron Coupe, I've just got too may projects and I need to clean house.
Again, price on that '69 is $1000 as is.

Carmine F.

Subject: Losing patience with '83 Imperial

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:15:09 -0700

Hmmm. There should be a round can just behind the right side headlight with
some vacuum hoses going to it. It is painted black, and is about 4 " in
diameter, maybe 3" deep. It should be there.........

Your problem with initial throttle response is a frequent complaint with these
cars, I think you have already checked to see that all the fuel nozzles are
shooting a good stream? I now wonder about your throttle position sensor. Let
me see if I can think up a way to check it easily. The next day or so is
pretty busy here, but let me noodle on it for a bit. We should be able to
check it. I wish you had a spare Computer around handy to try. They are so
expensive that it doesn't make sense to buy one just in case, is there anyone
else near you with an EFI car that you could maybe swap units with? That is
how Carl Baty and Randy Weir worked on their cars, Carl's is doing much
better, Randy's is still a mystery but I think we are closing in on it too. I
have some of his electronic modules here and I am trying to test them, so far
all checks out OK, but I am not done yet.

Carl, what do you think about all this?

Carmine, did we verify that your coolant sensor is OK? I posted the correct
resistance readings here the other day at 70 and 180 degrees, they are 970 and
1310 OHMs respectively. Apparently, this is fairly critical.

The wrong Temp sensor reading would definitely affect the throttle tip-in
response (make it run to lean, like inadequate choke in a carb car).

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Checked vacuum @ idle, it was around 17 in. Of course, idle was around 600-650
RPM, so I think it would probably pull 19 in. at 750 RPM. Idle fluctuates a
little bit too much to really get a good reading. Plugged all vacuum lines @
manifold, no difference. Although the vacuum line "sticker" on the fender
shows a reserve canister, I'll be danged if I can find it. (I was hoping to at
least find the source of my HVAC problem, if not the acceleration
stumble).Here is another symptom, maybe this will help with diagnosis. As I
mentioned earlier, the car will not accelerate smoothly unless you treat the
accel. pedal like it's made of fine crystal (subtle Imperial reference). If
you give the accelerator a quick jab, the engine will stumble, sputter or
stall. This condition exists whether I'm idling in park or drive (no-load or
with a load). When I do this (quick jabs at the gas) while trouble shooting in
the driveway, the car will return to idle, but fluctuate WILDLY.

Subject: Losing patience with '83 Imperial

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:24:30 EDT

Carmine -

Are you working without a manual? I agree fully with Dick's statements. Please
back off the problem for a couple of days to give us time to come up with the
best routes to fixing what I see a single source problem. If you are not
working with an EFI manual I can send you a copy of one.
Carl Baty
San Diego

Subject: Losing patience with '83 Imperial

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:10:45 -0400

References: GRADLTD@aol.com wrote:

Carmine -

Are you working without a manual?

No, I have both ('81). Although, as you know, the diagnostics are useless
without the "special" tester. I agree fully with Dick's statements. Please
back off the problem for a couple of days to give us time to come up with the
best routes to fixing what I see a single source problem.

I'm not ripping anything out just yet, luckily for the EFI system, I've got a
bunch of other problem havin' cars on my hands! I'll amuse myself with one of
them for a while.

If you are not working with an EFI manual I can send you a copy of one. Carl
Baty
San Diego

Thank you for the offer.

Carmine F.

Subject: Losing patience with '83 Imperial References:

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:25:28 -0400

Hmmm. There should be a round can just behind the right side headlight with
some vacuum hoses going to it. It is painted black, and is about 4" in
diameter, maybe 3" deep. It should be there.........

To my knowledge, this is the fuel vapor canister. It does have vacuum lines,
but they are for operating purge solenoids.

Your problem with initial throttle response is a frequent complaint with these
cars, I think you have already checked to see that all the fuel nozzles are
shooting a good stream?

Not with car running, but I took them out and flushed carb cleaner through
them. A good stream from all 4 holes.

I now wonder about your throttle position sensor. Let me see if I can think up
a way to check it easily.

I know that on newer FI cars, you use a voltmeter. Run the throttle from idle
to WOT and look for any "spikes" or dead spots. This TPS looks a little
different than what I'm used to seeing on newer cars.

Carmine, did we verify that your coolant sensor is OK? I posted the correct
resistance readings here the other day at 70 and 180 degrees, they are 970 and
1310 OHMs respectively. Apparently, this is fairly critical.

I'll give this a try.

The wrong Temp sensor reading would definitely affect the throttle tip-in
response (make it run to lean, like inadequate choke in a carb car).

Reason I haven’t tried coolant temp sensor is because the problem occurs both
hot and cold, to my knowledge the CTS is ignored until the car is out of open
loop, therefore it should be plenty rich when cold.

Carmine F.

Subject: "As the Throttle Shaft Turns" warning, EFI related, PG-
45

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:30:58 -0700

Yes, but it's the EFI coolant sensor that tells it when to go closed loop. If
it is malfunctioning, that could be related to the problem, I think.

On the charcoal canister, I guess you are right. I think my brain went open
loop on me for a while there, now you've got me wondering, where is the vacuum
reservoir, if any. Also, there is a vacuum amplifier that might get involved
here.

Monitoring the voltage coming out of the moveable tap on the TPS would be a
way to check it for sure, but you would have to have the engine running
(roaring!) or the ASDM would shut down the 23 volt power supply, and you'd see
nothing. Maybe putting a VOM on the resistance scale would do the same thing,
with the engine off and the harness unplugged from the TPS. Its worth a try,
but I don't know what resistance you should see "as the throttle shaft turns"
(New soap opera title for EFI fans).

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

To my knowledge, this is the fuel vapor canister. It does have vacuum lines,
but they are for operating purge solenoids.

I know that on newer FI cars, you use a voltmeter. Run the throttle from idle
to WOT and look for any "spikes" or dead spots. This TPS looks a little
different than what I'm used to seeing on newer cars.

Reason I haven’t tried coolant temp sensor is because the problem occurs both
hot and cold, to my knowledge the CTS is ignored until the car is out of open
loop, therefore it should be plenty rich when cold.

Subject: "As the Throttle Shaft Turns" warning, EFI related, PG-
45

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:01:48 -0400

Dick Benjamin wrote:

Yes, but it's the EFI coolant sensor that tells it when to go closed loop. If
it is malfunctioning, that could be related to the problem, I think.

Well, here's what I'm thinking. The CTS serves only: 1) To tell the computer
when the engine is warm enough to begin relying on the O2 sensor for air/fuel
ratio data. 2) Operate dashboard idiot light. Based on reason number 1, the
computer should stay either in open loop or closed loop depending upon how the
sensor failed (hi or low resistance). This means that the car should at least
run correctly either when it's warm or cold, again, depending on how the
sensor failed. I believe that someone on the list had a problem with the car
running poorly when warm, but fine when cold. My car on the other hand runs
poorly (tip-in) at ALL times.

I think my brain went open loop on me for a while there,

Haha.

Also, there is a vacuum amplifier that might get involved here.

Sprayed carb cleaner around vacuum amp searching for leaks, couldn't detect a
change in idle. There is also another black round thing near the vacuum amp.
(looks like a Hostess ding-dong) that has one vacuum line connected to it,
I'll check to see what this is.

Monitoring the voltage coming out of the moveable tap on the TPS would be a
way to check it for sure, but you would have to have the engine running
(roaring!) or the ASDM would shut down the 23 volt power supply, and you'd see
nothing.

This circuit stays energized on newer cars with the key on, do you think there
could be a way to keep it powered?

Maybe putting a VOM on the resistance scale would do the same thing, with the
engine off and the harness unplugged from the TPS.

Thinking of this also, actual numbers wouldn't be as important as noting any
shorts or opens. I'll give this a try.

"as the throttle shaft turns" (New soap opera title for EFI fans).

But you had better drop the PG-45 rating, as I was only ten when this car was
new. (You do the math).

Carmine F.

Subject: Losing patience with '83 Imperial

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:14:13 EDT

Carmine F / Dick Benjamin

I am working from memory of what you have replaced/dealt with in trying to
solve the acceleration problem. I would suggest that if you have not done so
please look at Chapter 14 page 84 of the 1981 Engine Performance Manual. The
"Control Pump" sits prominently at the rear of the throttle body. It is easy
to remove and take apart for examination. The danger in doing this is that
there is a white band around the pump armature, which contains a series of
small springs. Avoid doing anything, which would release these springs. They
are almost impossible to replace once released.

1. Fuel residue builds up on the walls of this pump cutting
performance dramatically. It is possible to simply clean this residue and then
try pump functioning by applying power.

2. The armature on this pump can be rebuilt by most electronic shops
without much difficulty or cost.

3. The Power Module, which is one of Dick's specialties, directly
affects the performance of this pump. These can be purchased for about $150 or
if Dick is so inclined, checked out and rebuilt if necessary. I would bet that
your problem is in the pump itself. Since it is not a big job to check it out
I would start there.

Dick, we had Randy's car running perfectly with my backup power module. If he
sent you his old once for testing and rebuilding, I can guarantee you that it
is bad. Randy lost enthusiasm for dealing with the car as he prepared to take
his trip to the Viet Nam Memorial with his Harley and missed the Smog II
deadline. We all backed off finishing the job when that happened and nothing
has been done since then. Randy is due back soon and I hope we can finish the
job, Smog II or no Smog II. I believe a properly functioning power module is
all that is needed to have the car running well. If you have one for him
please send it on and I will put it on my car first to check out the
performance.

Carl

Subject: More EFI trivia, shield your eyes, non-EFI buffs!

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:31:41 -0700

Dick,

W had Randy's car running perfectly with my backup power module. If he sent
you his old once for testing and rebuilding, I can guarantee you that it is
bad. Carl

Yes, Carl, I told him I would swap a known good one for his. He sent me two
power modules, I checked the obvious things without finding a problem so far,
they both have good 23 volt supplies, and seem to process the inputs properly.
I am planning to put them on my car one at a time to see if I can figure out
what performance difficulties they are causing. I perhaps misunderstood him
but I thought he told me both units he sent had caused his car to have
problems. One would not start readily, the other made the car run way too
rich. I was looking for that kind of problem, not knowing for sure which one
is which (he told me how to tell the two apart, but I either did not
understand, or else these are not the two units he thought they were). In any
case, I don't find any problem so far, but as I said I will put them on my car
and see what gives. I do not have a really good way to exercise the whole
program of the device, I have to do it piecemeal, since I do not have the
factory test set, or enough information to duplicate it.

The one I have available is one I repaired, it was donated to the IML by Jeff
Traylor, and I have run it successfully on my car, but I would sort of like to
know what characteristic of the failed units to look for, so I will be sure we
are fixing the right thing on his car.

It is encouraging that you had good performance with another unit on his car,
we should be able to figure out what is wrong knowing that.

I would suggest that if you have not done so please look at Chapter 14 page 84
of the 1981 Engine Performance Manual. The "Control Pump" sits prominently at
the rear of the throttle body. It is easy to remove and take apart for
examination. The danger in doing this is that there is a white band around the
pump armature, which contains a series of small springs. Avoid doing anything,
which would release these springs. They are almost impossible to replace once
released.

1. Fuel residue builds up on the walls of this pump cutting
performance dramatically. It is possible to simply clean this residue and then
try pump functioning by applying power.

2. The armature on this pump can be rebuilt by most electronic shops
without much difficulty or cost.

3. The Power Module, which is one of Dick's specialties, directly
affects the performance of this pump. These can be purchased for about $150 or
if Dick is so inclined, checked out and rebuilt if necessary. I would bet that
your problem is in the pump itself. Since it is not a big job to check it out
I would start there.

From: GRADLTD@aol.com

I would really be interested in what experience you have had with failed or
poor performing control fuel pumps. I must admit I have never suspected one of
causing a problem, although it is certainly plausible that they must have some
failure modes. The only one I ever had problems with would not run at all, it
seemed to be open circuit, and I have not yet gotten around to taking it
apart, I just installed another pump I had.

I was working on IML member Pat Lee's car today, and I had the experience that
you and Randy apparently had one time with his car with the starter problem. I
did not really understand the report at that time, but if you recall, the
report was that on trying to crank the car, a whirring noise was heard, but no
engine cranking. On Pat's car, I experienced that exact symptom, and after
scratching my head and tracing some current drain, I discovered that his
freshly "rebuilt" and still shiny starter has failed in such a way that while
it draws massive current, it does not perform any mechanical work, it just
sits there and gets hot. (It has a shorted field winding.)

So, what is the "whirring noise", you ask? The EFI doing its thing, which is
to run the pumps in the "I'm cranking, get ready to run" mode, just as it is
supposed to. Normally you wouldn't ever hear this noise, since the starter and
engine sounds would mask it, of course. So, it probably was not Randy's
starter that was whirring, but rather the EFI pumps, while the starter, for
whatever reason, was not turning at all. Just thought you'd like to know that
the reported symptom turned out to be spot on, I just hadn't understood it
correctly, thinking he meant the whirring noise was coming from the starter,
and therefore that the ring gear/starter pinion was not meshing, either due to
a messed up ring gear or a failed starter drive.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: Losing patience with '83 Imperial

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:30:01 EDT

Dick, Carmine F, and Cheerleader Bob.

The two power modules Randy sent you were both isolated as non-performing. We
went so far as to totally replace his throttle body with mine. This worked. We
then isolated individual parts of the throttle body, and after much work,
changes, etc., ended by isolating the power module as the only remaining
problem. The short time we ran Randy's car with my power module but his entire
fixed up throttle body was pure pleasure to me. The car idled and accelerated
smoothly. The one, which was on Randy's car, had more of the clear packing
substance on it than the second one. With Randy's original power module the
car would sometimes catch and sputter for a 10-20 seconds before shutting
down. A corollary of the original power module was that black soot was
expelled from the exhaust in great quantity. The second power module was one
provided by Bob Baker of San Diego. It had almost no packing material left but
was thought to be functioning. It took a very short time to determine that it
was not functioning at all. Bob has five 81-83 Imperials parted out in a
storage garage. He also owns (this week) two with EFIs in place and is a great
source of inspired wisdom. I enjoy working with Bob. He volunteers his time
with no thought to profit although his parts are not at all give-aways. He is
the person who showed me how to take apart the pump and how it could interfere
with the car's performance in exactly the way Carmine F. is describing. Bob is
an occasional scanner of the IML. It would be great if we could encourage him
into being a more constant and direct resource.

Putting either of the power modules on your car should answer your question
about their functioning quickly. A word of caution when swapping parts. In the
process of finding and isolating the problems on Randy's car, I freely and
knowingly put my entire system at risk. I paid for that. My car, which had
been running perfectly for several months, came back together without any
idling capability and halting performance on acceleration. It took several
weeks for me to get her back to her normal excellent performance level. Much
of that involved running the car after recalibrating the CCC. These systems
sometimes take several days of running before the integrated performance
reaches a steady point. I have learned and confirmed that what you see and get
on first starting a newly configured system is not at all what you might have
3 days later. The good news is that the time in running only improves and, in
my experience, never degrades performance. It certainly causes consternation
for the person who is trying to fix a particular problem. The positive results
are not always immediately evident. A level of Zen-like patience is a
requirement.

We should discuss the implications of Smog II, which went into effect last
month, for California owners of EFI systems. I believe my car would pass at
this point with several days work. I am fortunate in having almost two years
before I face this, but it requires a new level of knowledge and preparation.
Modifications in wiring, fuel system, any hoses, and emission tubing, etc.,
automatically result in a fail without even starting the car or testing the
car's emissions. I will try to get some relevant details out when time allows.

Dick, in regard to the starter on Randy's car, please just disregard this
problem until Randy chooses to fix it. The problem is in the starter and it
simply needs to be pulled and repaired.

I have found that there is a measurable difference in the temperature sensors
purchased from NAPA and the original equipment. I will have a new, original
equipment sensor sometime next week. As of this month, Chrysler no longer has
any in their inventory so used sensors are necessary alternatives if these
affect the running of the car. Certainly the NAPA sensors work. My question is
how well do they work?. I should have details on the measurable and
performance differences available in about two weeks.

That's all I have to offer this morning. I'm with Bob, Don't Give Up. The
rewards are worth the struggle. Carl

Subject: "As the Throttle Shaft Turns" warning, EFI related, PG-
45

From: (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Sat, 30 May 1998 13:40:03 EDT

Well, here's what I'm thinking. The CTS serves only:

1) To tell the computer when the engine is warm enough to begin relying on the
O2 sensor for air/fuel ratio data.

2) Operate dashboard idiot light.

Carmine,

Just to further complicate things, I'm certain that there's another sensor, a
Coolant Temperature "Switch," located on the right side of the engine that
operates the idiot light. Unlike the CTS, the Coolant Temp. Switch is an on or
off switch that merely completes the circuit for the HOT light when a
predetermined temp. is reached.

ED F

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:59:12 EDT

Good Morning Dick

It seems the only free time I have these days is in the 1/2 hour after getting
up, even before the coffee is perked. I am therefore not responsible for
anything I write.

In response to your message pointing to an ASDM as a potential problem with
the stalled car, I have talked to more than a dozen mechanics who serviced
these EFI systems in the past and everyone else who had experience to offer
both currently and over time. I am told repeatedly that the ASDM has never
been known to be the source of a non-running car, although I carry a backup
ASDM anyway. We have seen the ASDM ground as a problem and improved several
cars performance by hard wiring it. What confuses me is a diagnostic you
suggest which I have done religiously. Bypassing the ASDM with a shunt to the
large green/brown (from memory) will indeed isolate the in-tank pump. My
experience tells me it does not exclude any aspect of the rest of the EFI
system from being the source of a problem. Is this what you intended to
communicate or did I misunderstand?

I hope the problem with the stalled car is no spark. I have never been so
lucky, and with your expertise, I expect the car to be running again before I
finish my second cup. Carl

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:23:20 EDT

Dick,

After cup # 1, I checked my garage and the sensor box is not there. It may be
at my office storage location and it may be at Randy's garage. As soon as I
locate it I will send the number on to you. I suspected the problem in
locating it is what it is called. NAPA in LA (Regional Warehouse) lists 2
"temp sensors" for the car. If I recall they were both called "temp sens" on
the box. My memory tells me that you have the correct part number. Carl

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:15:53 -0700

Well Carl and EFI fans, as you might have already guess, when I went to tow
the car home this morning, it started right up, and drove perfectly the short
trip to home. So, I have not yet learned anything about the reason for it
dying yesterday. The ASDM has not had the added ground wire installed, so that
will be the first thing I do to it.

The question about the importance of the ASDM needs an answer, and I will see
if I can help here;

The ASDM is a device whose sole purpose in life is to decide whether or not to
supply power to the EFI system. It takes the 12 volt supplied via the ignition
switch and passes it through to the power module in the HSA if and only if it
"thinks" conditions are such that it should turn on the system. The components
in the main assembly (the HSA and the CCC and their accessory devices) accept
the 12 volts when it is supplied, and use it to power everything in the
system, via the 23 volt power supply, which is part of the power module. The
sensors are supposed to be bypassed (ignored) for the first few seconds of
cranking, while the fuel system is purged of vapor and the pressure comes up
to 20 PSI at the pump output, but as soon as the car starts, the designed
function comes into play.

There are a few different reason why the ASDM may "decide" not to supply
power. If the Engine RPM, which it monitors, drops below 150 RPM, it shuts the
system off. If the fuel pumps stay on too long without the engine firing, it
shuts the system off. If fuel is flowing, for whatever reason, with the engine
not turning above 150 RPM, it shuts the system off.

Unfortunately for the mental health of the drivers of these cars, the ASDM
sometimes "imagines" things are not right. If one is driving along a 65 MPH on
the freeway, and the ASDM gets a wild hair, it will shut the car down, and no
amount of cranking will restart it until the driver cycles the key completely
to "off" to reset the logic circuit in the ASDM. This is why, sometimes, the
car will refuse to start no matter how long you crank, but if you cycle the
key to off and then on, it will restart immediately.

The logic circuit that monitors the sensor inputs to make its "decision" is
unfortunately a poor design in that it is very sensitive to any disturbance on
ground or other connections. (For the Tech Types on the list, it is a TTL tied
back NAND type of bistable or "Flip/Flop", with no decoupling on either the
Vcc or ground lines, and no filtering on the logic inputs.) This means that if
there is any deterioration at all in the grounding at the fender well, it is
likely to suddenly shut the car down on a bump, or with a temperature change,
or just because because.

Incredibly, there is no ground wire on this circuit, the engineers relied on
the sheet metal screw which fastens its case to the inner fender to ground it.
That is why the service material from Chrysler recommended that a wire be
added to connect the case of the ASDM to the system ground, preferably at the
master EFI ground point at the rear of the right head, but also, and nearly as
good, more conveniently at the alternator case.

There are many EFI cars still working OK without this wire, but generally, it
is just a matter of time before it begins to cause trouble of the most
irritating kind, mysterious stalling and cutting out, which comes and goes
without rhyme or reason.

I would add to the suggested fix, that the ASDM should be deliberately
insulated from the fender, which is likely to pick up static discharge or
other contaminating signals as the car ages and the mounting bolts get crud
under them. When the added wire is put on the ASDM, it no longer needs the
potentially troublesome connection to the body sheet metal.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

In response to your message pointing to an ASDM as a potential problem with
the stalled car, I have talked to more than a dozen mechanics who serviced
these EFI systems in the past and everyone else who had experience to offer
both currently and over time. I am told repeatedly that the ASDM has never
been known to be the source of a non-running car, although I carry a backup
ASDM anyway. We have seen the ASDM ground as a problem and improved several
cars performance by hard wiring it. What confuses me is a diagnostic you
suggest which I have done religiously. Bypassing the ASDM with a shunt to the
large green/brown (from memory) will indeed isolate the in-tank pump. My
experience tells me it does not exclude any aspect of the rest of the EFI
system from being the source of a problem.

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Sat, 30 May 1998 22:55:22 -0700

Carl, thanks for the very clear explanation, I will be on the lookout for the
reasons for problems with Randy's two power modules. I will also try a pump
refurbish as you suggest to clear up a balky acceleration in my brown car.

Will you confirm that the NAPA sensor you have tried is TS 5008? I am not able
to find it in their catalog, and I am afraid I copied down the number wrong.

I got Pat Lee's car running today, it had not run for about a year. It
actually runs quite well, and has good performance right off the bat, but
after about 1/2 hour of running, after which it restarted well a couple of
times, when it cooled for an hour, it would not restart, apparently due to no
ignition at all. Unfortunately I was about 1/2 mile from my shop when this
happened, and it was getting quite dark, so I will have to go tow it home
tomorrow and continue the investigation. I suspect the ASDM, but that is just
a guess at this point. I did give it a dollop of gas down its maw without
noticeable effect.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

A level of Zen-like patience is a requirement.

OMMMMMMMMMMM. (You're right, I do feel better!) We should discuss the
implications of Smog II, which went into effect last month, for California
owners of EFI systems.

I should knock wood when I say this, but the last time I smogged my black car,
it passed with astonishingly clean numbers. I'll find out how it goes in
December with it next time. Gulp.

I have found that there is a measurable difference in the temperature sensors
purchased from NAPA and the original equipment. I will have a new, original
equipment sensor sometime next week. As of this month, Chrysler no longer has
any in their inventory so used sensors are necessary alternatives if these
affect the running of the car. Certainly the NAPA sensors work. My question is
how well do they work?. I should have details on the measurable and
performance differences available in about two weeks.

Subject: EFI Coolant Sensor

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:30:36 EDT

Dick et al.,

The NAPA EFI Coolant Temperature Sensor Number is TS5008. I am looking at one
now, so it is certain. It's good and bad news that the car you went out to tow
started right up. Now you get to experience the suspense of trying to make it
fail again.

Later Carl

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:57:56 EDT

Good work on diagnosing the EFI problems guys. The information you are
disseminating is helpful to all of us EFI car owners. My 81 is working quite
well now after implementing Dick's recommendation to ground the ASD module. It
still is erratic as far as starting is concerned. When cold it will start with
a 5 to 8 second crank. When it is warm about half the time it starts on the
second revolution of the engine and other times it may start and die after the
second revolution. Then it will take a 15 to 20 second crank to get it
started.

I replaced the coolant temperature sensor with the NAPA TS 5008 and it works
the same as the one I removed which was an original equipment Chrysler. The
resistance readings I recall are as follows: 70 F180F Chrysler 950 OHMs 2300
OHMs NAPA950 OHMs 1700 OHMs There was no detectable difference in performance
with either sensor. Rolland Westra

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:08:02 EDT

The recommendation to ground the ASD module is extremely accurate. My 81 has
not quit since installing the ground wire. Prior to that I could not rely on
it running 20 minutes without dying and failing to restart. I also had the
experience that returning after 30 to 45 minutes the car would start and run
fine (for another 30 minute) It acted like a temperature problem but I don't
believe that is the case.

Try it you’ll like it. Rolland

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:18:52 -0700

OK, Rolland, thanks for the note.

I have recently been on the track of an identical erratic starting situation,
and I think I have tracked it down into being a faulty Fuel Pressure Switch.
Just to confirm it is easy, finding a new one will be a little tougher,
although the function is very similar to that of an idiot light sender for a
car with an oil pressure warning light, in that it closes on low pressure and
opens on high pressure. The threshold values are probably not right, the EFI
switch closes at 10 PSI and opens at 20 PSI, but maybe anything is better than
one that does not work. I am going to go through the NAPA catalogs today to
see if I can find one that is passably close. These may still be available
from Chrysler, I haven't tried yet.

To confirm a bad FPS, take off the lid of your air cleaner, find the FPS, it
is identical in appearance to any other pressure switch, like a brake light
(hydraulic type) or an oil pressure idiot light sender. It hangs upside down
like a sleeping bat from the fuel lines connected to the control fuel pump,
and has one wire clipped to its lowest part. Pull this wire off (sideways in
the direction of the wire travel) and take your VOM, measure the resistance
from the FPS terminal to the fuel line. It should be zero OHMs, or close to
it. If it is higher than about 50 OHMs, it is probably what is causing your
problem. I found one of them that is very high, like an open circuit, in a car
that was acting the way you describe. I loaned the one from my brown car,
which was good, and the problem went away completely.

Let us know what you find out, OK?

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

My 81 is working quite well now after implementing Dick's recommendation to
ground the ASD module. It still is erratic as far as starting is concerned.
When cold it will start with a 5 to 8 second crank. When it is warm about half
the time it starts on the second revolution of the engine and other times it
may start and die after the second revolution. Then it will take a 15 to 20
second crank to get it started.
Subject: EFI saga continues

From: RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:19:15 EDT

Thanks for the tip on the fuel pressure switch Dick. I replaced this switch
about 6 years ago. I will try out the resistance measurement and see what I
find. It certainly sounds like it could be vapor in the line that is not being
purged quickly enough.

Thanks again and keep up the sound advice.

Rolland

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:20:31 EDT

Dick:

I checked my fuel pressure switch and it shows continuity with little or no
resistance. However, the car has been starting fine all day so I am wondering
if an intermittent fuel pressure switch is a possibility. I will be carrying
an ohmmeter along for the next couple of days to check it out. I will probably
be the only one in the parking lot with an ohmmeter under the hood before I
start the car.

I will let you know what I find out.

Regarding my poor acceleration that you made suggestions for a few weeks ago.
I do have the factory tires. Also the timing is correct. I get a slight
pinging at WOT during an upshift from 1-2 and again from 1-3. My zero to 60
time with a warmed up engine is no better than 16 seconds. Even though it
should be better than that I can live with this if everything else works OK.
My reliability seems to have been regained and the car drives like a dream.

Rolland Westra
PS Can I be of some help on the diagnostic piece you are considering for EFI
cars

Subject: EFI saga continues

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:50:31 -0700

The ohmmeter under the hood seems like a good idea to me. I have resorted to
that a few times myself, as an intermittent FPS is a bear to diagnose
otherwise, and I have seen a lot of them, like maybe most of them get
intermittent after a while?

It wasn't me who questioned your tires, but it was a good thought. I put
215X15's on my black car, made a difference in the performance, but helped the
true mileage (actual readout was poorer of course, but my miles were bigger
miles), and generally made the car drive nicer, so I really like the change.

Your timing sounds right on, the light pinging is just right, the knock sensor
doing its job. Chrysler claimed 12 sec 0 to 60, I wonder how accurate that
was. Premium fuel would help, since the knock sensor would allow more advance,
thus improving power.

I like the idea Carl Baty put forth about your control fuel pump perhaps being
down on capacity. I have yet to take one apart, but since I have been getting
in trouble that way since I was 8 years old with my first New Departure
coaster brake, I have a feeling the time is near. I'll take apart one of the
spare units I have here and see what I see. I'll file a report with the EFI
committee (there are 78 of us long suffering types on the IML here, can you
believe it?)

Thanks for the offer of help. Carl Baty has the ball on this for the moment, I
really dropped it when I realized my contribution should be technical, not
editing and computer wizardry, which I definitely lack.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

intermittent fuel pressure switch is a possibility. I will be carrying an
ohmmeter along for the I do have the factory tires. Also the timing is
correct. I get a slight pinging at WOT during an upshift from 1-2 and again
from 1-3. My zero to 60 time with a warmed up engine is no better than 16
seconds.

My reliability seems to have been regained and the car drives like a dream.

Rolland Westra
PS Can I be of some help on the diagnostic piece you are considering for EFI
cars

Subject: EFI Sensors

From: (Eddenbud@aol.com)

Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:38:02 EDT

Well I finally got out that old EFI system from my 81 that's been sitting in
the garage and began testing some of the sensors using guidelines Dick
Benjamin has provided in past letters. I had hoped that I might be able to use
these on my 82 which is still EFI.

I found the Coolant Temp. Sensor to be within tolerances Dick provided at low
temp's, but how do I test it at 180 degrees? Should I immerse it in some hot
water along with a candy thermometer?

Dick also pointed out that the Fuel Pressure Switch should be very low
resistance, around zero OHMs. Mine indicated infinite resistance until I
tapped it with a wrench and then it dropped to around 7-15 OHMs. Doesn't sound
too reliable, does it?

I also located the Auto Shutdown Module in my box of goodies. It had this
sticky goop that appeared to have leaked out of it. Is this some type of
filler adhesive Chrysler used? It looks like it was just poured in on top of
the circuits and has now run out. The Fuel Flowmeter Module on the Hydraulic
Support Assembly has no back to it (!) and it appears to have the same goop in
it, also running out and making a sticky mess of everything. If this is an
adhesive they used inside these components, I wonder what would cause it to
soften and run out. I mean it does get HOT in my Florida garage on the
southwest corner of the house, but gosh, I think it gets kind of hot under the
hood of an Imperial with a 318 humming along under there too, don't you?!!

Hmmm...Doesn't sound like I have too many spares for the 82, does it?!

ED F
Subject: EFI Sensors

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:04:54 -0700

Ed;

The goop running out is not a problem, they all do that, it does not affect
the operation of the devices. Chrysler apparently hired some engineers right
out of school to work on this project, they made so many amateurish mistakes I
have lost count. Picking the wrong potting compound was one of the least
serious of these. I'm sure your ASDM and the flow meter (no back is correct)
are just fine. You will probably find this same goop running around inside
your support plate, make sure it has not gotten down into the throttle
butterfly area, it can plug up some passages there. In fact this might be part
of your driveablity problems, it wouldn't hurt to take it all apart and clean
it out. The stuff is extremely difficult to get off, it is incredibly sticky,
as you have no doubt noted. If you do disassemble the throttle body, be very
careful not to damage the gaskets between the intake manifold, the throttle
body and the bottom of the support assembly. They are tough to find, and very
expensive.

Your fuel pressure switch is doing what most of them do when they get old. My
recommendation is to replace it with a NAPA OP6415 (direct replacement, lower
threshold, now running in my daily driver with no problems) or a NAPA OP6604
(Closer match pressure threshold, but you need a 1/8 pipe street elbow and a
1/8 pipe male to 1/4 pipe adapter female to install it).

Yes, the hot water bath with a candy thermometer is exactly the way to test
the coolant sensor. Most likely, if it is OK at room temp, it is going to be
OK everywhere, it is just a simple wire resistor, made of a wire with the
right resistance and temperature coefficient. It is either making contact to
the terminals or it isn't, it is not likely to go out of calibration. The ones
that fail are open or intermittent.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

temp's, but how do I test it at 180 degrees? Should I immerse it in some hot
water along with a candy thermometer? Dick also pointed out that the Fuel
Pressure Switch should be very low resistance, around zero OHMs. Mine
indicated infinite resistance until I tapped it with a wrench and then it
dropped to around 7-15 OHMs. Doesn't sound too reliable, does it? I also
located the Auto Shutdown Module in my box of goodies. It had this sticky goop
that appeared to have leaked out of it. Is this some type of filler adhesive
Chrysler used? It looks like it was just poured in on top of the circuits and
has now run out. The Fuel Flowmeter Module on the Hydraulic Support Assembly
has no back to it (!) and it appears to have the same goop in it, also running
out and making a sticky mess of everything.

Subject: 81 Imperials

Sent: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:53:22 -0400

From: tbenvie@bu.edu (Thomas M. Benvie)

Still have the two cars, still hoping to sell. A few people were interested in
some digital pictures, but I lost all my mail, all my bookmarks, etc. Somehow
"Surfwatch" was turned on in my computer and I didn't have a password so tried
to disable it-well, I did, but at the expense of all my files. So who wanted
the Pictures?

I was saving all those 81-83 Imperial posts, but lost them all. Are they saved
anywhere else?

Thanks

Subject: "As the Throttle Shaft Turns" warning, EFI related, PG-
45

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:22:00 -0700

Carmine,

I see I never responded to part of this. You can keep the TPS energized
without running the engine, what you have to do is unplug the two wire
connector that goes to the control fuel pump so that it does not fill your
intake manifold with liquid fuel (this is the one inside the HSA "air
cleaner"), then jumper from pin 2 to 3 of the ASDM plug, then, when you turn
on the key, that will supply 12 volts to the power module, which in turn will
supply 23 volts to the TPS. In re-reading the whole batch of messages on the
subject of poor throttle response, I am struck by the fact that a large number
of these cars show this symptom at some point in their life (including one of
mine), and I think Carl Baty's suggestion about possible crud buildup in the
control fuel pump might bear further investigation. I will look into this and
see if I can learn anything.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

This circuit stays energized on newer cars with the key on, do you think there
could be a way to keep it powered?
Carmine F.

Subject: More EFI stuff-

From: GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:14:50 EDT

Carmine F

Your input is great. It will be published in a series of EFI releases and
summaries in August or September so that EFI people (current owners and those
to come) will have access to it. Anything up can add, now or later, would be
greatly appreciated.

Do you think that your local expert would write up what he knows in addition
to what you have given us so that we can publish it for the everlasting future
of EFI owners? His input could make a lot of difference to a lot of people who
are running these cars. I will make sure it gets out on the net in accessible
form and stays there. Maybe if you show him this e-mail it would help. Maybe
also print the e-mail, Bill Heard-Further adventures EFI on today's IML
listing, he would understand what we are doing.

Would you be willing to pass itemized problem details, and our best current
information regarding specific cars to this guy? We would love to have him as
a resource for members, but a few of us with experience, would summarize the
information before it gets passed on, to keep his time expenditure limited.

Carl Baty, San Diego

Subject: Further adventures in EFI-land. Imperial is fixed!

From: <WHeard8100@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:24:19 EDT

I have an '81 which has been stored for about 10 years and looks beautiful,
but in trying to get it on the road, we are having difficulty with the
electronic fuel injection. The service technician has gotten fuel up to the
injector assembly, but cannot get fuel through it. The Chrysler dealer in
Danville, VA does not have the test equipment which I remember was only issued
to certain Imperial dealers who had gotten the training. I am trying to locate
a knowledgeable individual who could talk the mechanic or me through
procedures or who could help us locate the loan or use in place of the testing
equipment special to this car...or any other approach to getting it running.
The mechanic has gotten the engine running by pouring gas down the intake.

Can you help?

Respectfully,

Bill Heard

Subject: 81-83 EFI Temp Sensors

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:34:37 EDT

All interested EFI Buffs

I replaced my NAPA temperature sensor with a new Chrysler temperature sensor
two days ago. The difference in performance is very significant. I did not
take measurements, either hot or cold, I just put in the new one and every
problem related to cold starts are simply gone. I talked to Bob Baker about
this. He has had knowledge of Chrysler original temp sensors that were bad
straight out of the box. I read a message a couple of weeks ago from a fellow
IML member who was getting identical readings at high and low temperatures for
both original and NAPA parts. I have seen others who showed some variation. I
believe NAPA specs give a 1/2 ohm variation for the original specs from the
original. My performance results mean more to me than anything else. It could
be that both NAPA and Chrysler parts are actually varying part to part. I will
still keep the NAPA sensor as backup but if problems are experienced trying an
original seems like a good idea. Carl Baty, San Diego

Subject: 81-83 EFI Temp Sensors

From: <GRADLTD@aol.com

Sent: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:32:53 EDT

Rolland and other interested IML members,

I now have all the discussions and measurement information sent to the IML
since sometime in 1996 which relate to these sensors (thanks to Bob Schmitt).
I ask that anyone with information relating to this sensor or any other EFI
related information, send it to my office system at Grad@cts.com (Dr. Baty
Only) so that it can be included in the summaries and discussions to come. I
will do an edit search on the text files on this subject and present the
results. I know that we are getting a range of both measurement and
functioning on both NAPA and Original Equipment sensors. I do not know, and to
my knowledge, the data is not available, on how these sensors vary with use
and age.

Chrysler no longer has stock on the original sensors anywhere. Bob Baker, here
in San Diego, has a couple in reserve for his use, (Bob now has six 81-83
Imperials parted out in storage with parts for sale, but the new sensors he
has are not for sale) so used sensors are the only option I know of. Can
anyone out there find me a backup original? Can anyone suggest a source for
those of us who have systems which seem to prefer the original?

Some NAPA/Originals are identical in measurement and some show no difference
in performance. My most recent experience indicates that if you are having any
cold running problems, replacing this sensor is the fastest route to a
solution. I suspect that much of the variation in performance is do to the EFI
system characteristics on the particular car, the CCC settings which I have
learned adjust to a new situation over a 3+ day period of running (although my
81 responded to the Original Equipment sensor on the first start), and the age
and mileage and characteristics of the particular sensor itself.

The NAPA sensor costs about $24.00. If that doesn't do it, try an original or
a second NAPA sensor from a different production run. They do not seem to
break down easily. Bob estimates that they should hold up for about 10 years
of running without problems. The replacement calls for a 15/16th deep socket
with a very thin wall because of the lack of room around the sensor base. I
had to put my socket on a grinder to make it narrow enough to fit in that
space. Be careful of the gray plastic EGR valve which sits next to it. I have
broken 2 in replacing the temp sensors on different cars.

Now, for those of you who found that boring, stand by for a recap of all that
has been written about these sensors. Warning, this information will cause
drowsiness. Do not read while driving or after a heavy meal.

Carl Baty, San Diego

Subject: It Begins 81-83 EFI Temp Sensors

Bob,

Sent in response to Rolland's IML message today. See what a monster you have
helped create

Sent: 98-06-28 10:32:53 EDT

From: GRADLTD

Rolland and other interested IML members,

I now have all the discussions and measurement information sent to the IML
since sometime in 1996 which relate to these sensors (thanks to Bob Schmitt).
I ask that anyone with information relating to this sensor or any other EFI
related information, send it to my office system at Grad@cts.com (Dr. Baty
Only) so that it can be included in the summaries and discussions to come. Old
e-mail messages are needed as well as any current thoughts. I will sort out
duplicates. I will do an edit search on the text files on the EFI temperature
sensor subject and present the results. I know that we are getting a range of
both measurement and functioning on both NAPA and Original Equipment sensors.
I do not know, and to my knowledge, the data is not available, on how these
sensors vary with use and age.

Chrysler no longer has stock on the original sensors anywhere. Bob Baker, here
in San Diego, has a couple in reserve for his use, (Bob now has six 81-83
Imperials parted out in storage with parts for sale, but the new sensors he
has are not for sale) so used sensors are the only option I know of. Can
anyone out there find me a backup original? Can anyone suggest a source for
those of us who have systems which seem to prefer the original?

Some NAPA/Originals are identical in measurement and some show no difference
in performance. My most recent experience indicates that if you are having any
cold running problems, replacing this sensor is the fastest route to a
solution. I suspect that much of the variation in performance is do to the EFI
system characteristics on the particular car, the CCC settings which I have
learned adjust to a new situation over a 3+ day period of running (although my
81 responded to the Original Equipment sensor on the first start), and the age
and mileage and characteristics of the particular sensor itself.

The NAPA sensor costs about $24.00. If that doesn't do it, try an original or
a second NAPA sensor from a different production run. They do not seem to
break down easily. Bob estimates that they should hold up for about 10 years
of running without problems. The replacement calls for a 15/16th deep socket
with a very thin wall because of the lack of room around the sensor base. I
had to put my socket on a grinder to make it narrow enough to fit in that
space. Be careful with the gray plastic EGR valve which sits next to it. I
have broken 2 in replacing the temp sensors on different cars.

Now, for those of you who found that boring, stand by for a recap of all that
has been written about these sensors. Warning, this information will cause
drowsiness. Do not read while driving or after a heavy meal.

Carl Baty, San Diego

Subject: 81-83 EFI Temp Sensors

From: <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:49:07 EDT

Carl;

Thanks for the input on EFI temperature sensors. My experience is somewhat
different but your cold starting experience is good information.

I replaced a Chrysler sensor which read approximately 900 ohms at room
temperature and 2300 ohms at engine operating temperature with a NAPA sensor
that read about 950 ohms at room temp. and 1800 ohms at operating temperature
with no discernible difference is starting or running. This doesn't seem quite
right to me but to the best of my observation both perform the same.

Thanks again.

Rolland

Subject: Further adventures in EFI-land. Imperial is fixed!

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:06:00 -0400

If anyone remembers (or cares), I have been troubleshooting a problem with my
'83 EFI off & on for about 2 months. Today I solved it. Everyone with
mid/late-sixties Imperials, please knock on your dashboards for me...The '83
is made of plas-ti-wood, and my '61 is chrome, neither has any good luck
properties.

Problem: Poor acceleration at low speeds; chuggs, pops, etc. Always starts,
runs great at high speeds. Related Problem; A/C-HVAC system goes to defrost
mode upon hard acceleration.

This problem sounds like a classic vacuum leak, and as such I checked
EVERYWHERE looking for the cracked hose, loose fitting, etc. Then I spent
endless hours checking sensors, etc.

Finally, through some contacts at work (CHRYSLER), I was introduced to a guy
who is supposed to be the EFI guru. He worked at Birmingham Chrysler/Plymouth
in the early 80s and he was the EFI mechanic at the dealer. Now he works in
the Chrysler dyno lab.

I dropped the car off for him to look at. He called me back with the following
problems.

1. Battery was charging at 18 volts constantly. One of the two voltage
regulator pins vibrated loose inside the connector. This made for some really
screwy sensor readings. (he has an EFI tester) Problem solved with a new
voltage regulator ($9.99)

2. He noticed that the Combustion Control Computer (CCC) was not perfectly
sealed to the air cleaner.

He stopped his diagnosis here. He said he could fix the problems, but would
have to charge for labor. Since they were so minor, he'd just give me the car
back and let me fix them, then he'd continue the diagnosis. Now I understood
how the voltage regulator could cause weird problems, but in all honesty, this
guy seemed just a bit too anal-retentive. Don't get me wrong, he's a really
NICE guy, but he talked with me for about two hours non-stop on the phone
explaining the most MINOR details of this EFI system. Let's just say he's VERY
thorough.

One of the seemingly minor points that he made a very big deal about was
having a "smooched" seal between the air-cleaner and the HSA. Being an old
school carburetor guy, I didn't see this as a cause for such a dramatic
problem, but I listened. He never removed my air-cleaner, but he did mention
the seal anyhow. I was sort of thinking, "typical dealership guy, just
replaces everything until it starts working again".

I was wrong.

Normally, I think of a vacuum leak as something either just above or just
under the throttle blades. This is true on a carb, but not with this EFI
system. ANY air that enters AFTER the "air-meter" on the air-cleaner housing
is a vacuum leak. Well guess what?

My seal was "smooched". I cut a new seal out of high density 1/2" foam and
reinstalled it, not expecting much. I also re-did the seal between the CCC and
the air-cleaner. Not only did this solve my acceleration problem 100%, it also
cured the HVAC problem.

I've got a whole bunch more EFI stuff to tell, but I've got to get
going...I'll write back soon.

Carmine F.
Subject: Further adventures in EFI-land. Imperial is fixed!

From: <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:36:26 EDT

Thanks for sharing your experiences Carmine. What you have learned is very
helpful to all of us 81 - 83 EFI owners. I will be checking my air cleaner
seals in the morning to see if the acceleration problem can be improved and
the hard starting can be helped.

Any information you can provide is another piece in this huge puzzle we call
"keeping those EFI cars running"

Thanks again and tell us the rest of your story when you have time.

Rolland Westra

Subject: Further adventures in EFI-land. Imperial is fixed!

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:50:55 -0700

Carmine, this it great news, and it confirms my experience with "minor" air
leaks around the air cleaner lid. I posted my thoughts on this about 2 weeks
ago, after finding it was the main problem with another IML member's car (Pat
Lee). I'll add it to the data bank on EFI funnies. Thanks for the info.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: Further adventures in EFI-land. Imperial is fixed!

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 4:06 PM

If anyone remembers (or cares), I have been troubleshooting a problem with my
'83 EFI off & on for about 2 months. Today I solved it. Everyone with
mid/late-sixties Imperials, please knock on your dashboards for me...The '83
is made of plas-ti-wood, and my '61 is chrome, neither has any good luck
properties.

Problem: Poor acceleration at low speeds; chuggs, pops, etc. Always starts,
runs great at high speeds. Related Problem; A/C-HVAC system goes to defrost
mode upon hard acceleration.

This problem sounds like a classic vacuum leak, and as such I checked
EVERYWHERE looking for the cracked hose, loose fitting, etc. Then I spent
endless hours checking sensors, etc.

Finally, through some contacts at work (CHRYSLER), I was introduced to a guy
who is supposed to be the EFI guru. He worked at Birmingham Chrysler/Plymouth
in the early 80s and he was the EFI mechanic at the dealer. Now he works in
the Chrysler dyno lab.

I dropped the car off for him to look at. He called me back with the following
problems.

1. Battery was charging at 18 volts constantly. One of the two
voltage regulator pins vibrated loose inside the connector. This made for some
really screwy sensor readings. (he has an EFI tester) Problem solved with a
new voltage regulator ($9.99)

2. He noticed that the Combustion Control Computer (CCC) was not
perfectly sealed to the air cleaner.

He stopped his diagnosis here. He said he could fix the problems, but would
have to charge for labor. Since they were so minor, he'd just give me the car
back and let me fix them, then he'd continue the diagnosis. Now I understood
how the voltage regulator could cause weird problems, but in all honesty, this
guy seemed just a bit too anal-retentive. Don't get me wrong, he's a really
NICE guy, but he talked with me for about two hours non-stop on the phone
explaining the most MINOR details of this EFI system. Let's just say he's VERY
thorough.

One of the seemingly minor points that he made a very big deal about was
having a "smooched" seal between the air-cleaner and the HSA. Being an old
school carburetor guy, I didn't see this as a cause for such a dramatic
problem, but I listened. He never removed my air-cleaner, but he did mention
the seal anyhow. I was sort of thinking, "typical dealership guy, just
replaces everything until it starts working again".

I was wrong.

Normally, I think of a vacuum leak as something either just above or just
under the throttle blades. This is true on a carb, but not with this EFI
system. ANY air that enters AFTER the "air-meter" on the air-cleaner housing
is a vacuum leak. Well guess what?

My seal was "smooched". I cut a new seal out of high density 1/2" foam and
reinstalled it, not expecting much. I also re-did the seal between the CCC and
the air-cleaner. Not only did this solve my acceleration problem 100%, it also
cured the HVAC problem.

I've got a whole bunch more EFI stuff to tell, but I've got to get
going...I'll write back soon.
Carmine F.

Subject: More EFI stuff

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:19:44 -0400

OK, here's some more info (in no particular order) for crazy people who drive
EFI Imperials...

1. It is not unusual for the car to surge SLIGHTLY at idle. This is
because the CCC is always "searching" for the perfect mixture of
air/fuel/spark. The "guru" even showed me the changing readouts on different
sensors (temp, O2, etc.) during idle. The reason that this effect is more
noticeable on an 81-83 Imp (as compared to "modern" cars) is simply the fact
that the CCC is late 70s computer technology. In other words, its little brain
cannot process the info fast enough and therefore causes a delay between
sensor data and mechanical action (re-action of engine).

2. As I stated earlier, this system has NO tolerance for air leaks.
For example, after fixing my seals, I took the car for a drive around the
block. The problem seemed to be only 90% cured. As I stood around watching the
engine surge just a bit more than it should at idle, I noticed the oil
breather to air cleaner hose was loose. I pushed it on better, and the idle
improved measurably. Another ride around the block confirmed this problem and
the car was running 100%. On a carburetor car, this same problem would have a
.0005% effect on performance (if at all)!

3. The cars can be prone to "internal" vacuum leaks. This is because
Imperial 318s used 360 intake gaskets. (Paper instead of steel). The paper
seal can break-down between the lifter valley and intake port, thus a vacuum
leak you'll NEVER find. The guru had no idea why the factory did this, but he
always uses the proper 318 gasket on any rebuilds. Cars that do this will burn
oil on the freeway, but none during city driving (Unless of course there are
other problems like stem seals, rings, etc. then, it will always burn oil).

4. Vacuum leaks are also common near the distributor, at the rear of
the intake (this applies to any smallblock Mopar). Typically, you see the
gasket squishing out from its proper place.

5. It's easy for the CCC to go into what he termed "lean-lock". (runs
too lean) Apparently this happens quite often, and can be triggered by almost
anything. The only fix is to reset the CCC.

6. To reset the CCC, you don't have to go through all that "rev @
2500 RPM for 90 seconds" B.S. He says just unplug the white connector and re-
connect. The computer will "learn" on its own. I believe him, because I've
done it a few times now with no ill effect. The guru is also not the type to
cut-corners, unless it's really, really OK.

7. The "lean-lock" problem was caused by the computer's programming.
It was told, when in doubt, go lean. Blame the EPA. There was no fix for this
problem, and this was the reason for carb-conversion. The EPA wouldn't grant a
wavier to allow the car to have slightly higher HC emissions (only under
certain conditions). By the way, the EPA grants waivers all the time, at least
two that I know of are the Pontiac Fiero or any Mazda rotory.

8. A slack timing chain will cause lots of grief.

9. An idle that goes down when you step on the brake has a bad
throttle stop ground. I knew the brake switch was tied into the idle circuit,
but I didn't know it would reduce idle ONLY if the throttle stop lost its
ground (corrosion, dirt, etc.)

10. If you run good gas (premium), you can set the timing to 14
degrees instead of 12 degrees. He says the timing was backed off purely for
emissions, it will run better at 14 degrees.

11. 1-2 seconds worth of spark knock at the 1-2 and 2-3 shift is
normal (under hard acceleration).

12. Not having catalytic converters won't cause any driveabilty
problems, BUT, not having the air pump injecting air at the O2 sensor
(upstream air) could cause a problem with cold weather warm-up. The fresh air
helps heat the O2 sensor (it only begins to work above 600 degrees). So if you
don't heat it up with fresh oxygen, the computer will be looking at a cold O2
sensor when it goes to closed loop. Once the 70 second timer has "timed-out",
the air from the air pump is directed to the converters to help them warm up.
However, even he admitted that the problem would be very slight, possibly
unnoticeable.

Any part (voltage regulator, alternator, a/c compressor, p/s pump, etc.)
marked with a silver/black Pentastar was tested after being built and
performed better than average, thus it was given the silver/black star and
destined for Imperial use only.

This is all I can remember for now, I'll be staying in touch with the guru. If
I didn't cover your questions, just ask me, I'll try to give an answer.

By the way, the guru loves Chrysler products and is happy to help keep them on
the road. He has the obligatory "Proud to be a part of Chrysler Engineering"
front license plate on his mini-van. Like me, guru also gets sick whenever he
remembers that we're being bought-out. It's like a bad dream for many of us. E

Chrysler defense employees (the guys who brought you the M-1 tank) are really
ticked-off.

Although he does remind me a little of the "Doc" in the "Back To The Future"
movies, he is exactly the type of employee I was talking about when I wrote
how disappointed I was that e

GM guy Bob Eaton had sold-out the company to Daimler-Benz. There really are a
lot of people at Chrysler like this, and I can honestly say it's not nearly as
common to run into GM or Ford Engineering employees who are this passionate
about their jobs. There are a lot of "mad scientist" types at Chrysler who
couldn't care less about Detroit football/baseball/hockey teams, but could
probably go on for days telling you why the rod bearings on a 3.3l V6 are
better than the bearings on a GM 3.4l V6. Not exactly fun at parties, but very
proud of their jobs.

Sorry for the soapbox, but it's somewhat relevant.

Carmine F.
Subject: Rough Acceleration

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:25:50 -0700

Check your plug wire routing, make sure the wire to #5 is a far as possible
from the wire to #7, and where they must cross, do so at as close to a right
angle as you can arrange.

See the following recent conversation with Ken Yorke:

From Ken; Sometimes you find the solution in the funniest places. Same said
Dart had been developing an intermittent/cyclical vibration, driving me nuts,
getting worse and worse, changed harmonic balancer, fan, put in new u-joints,
tried THREE different drivelines, changed wheels etc. One thing though,
vibration seemed to be coming from the engine. But I kept telling
myself......how can an engine go "out of balance"???

Decided on a hopeless desperation long shot. Only thing I could figure was
that some cylinders were cross-firing, setting up a vibe.

Changed plugs and plug wires.

Vibration gone.

?!?!?!?!?!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ken Yorke.

Reply:

Yeah, I have seen the plug wire thing on a couple of cars now, both with the
18436572 firing order. In fact, there is a service letter on it, cautioning
the mechanic to never route the #5 plug wire parallel to the #7 plug wire,
always cross it, even if it means a less than neat appearance. It seems the
pulse for #5 will inductively couple to and trigger #7 also, which is also
charged up and ready to fire 90 degrees after #5 fires, so it will kick the
engine backwards (#7 will be on its compression stroke) for a microsecond when
this happens, usually on part throttle around 2000 RPM, as I recall. Feels
like an intermittent miss or rough spot on acceleration.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

From: Cary Pittman - quelller_drive@hotmail.com

Now I seem to be having a problem with the 440 itself. I think I may need a
new distributor unit. I installed a new one approximately 3-4 years ago. Does
anyone know if it is normal for these things to malfunction this quickly? The
car runs like it is missing under load (driving down the interstate) and idles
out of rhythm so to speak. This only happens intermittedly. It did this
before--when I had the old distributor unit, when I put in the new one--the
problem disappeared. I am perplexed since the new unit is not that old (and
the car sat for 2.5 years of that 3-4). CP

Subject: 81 IMPERIAL

Sent: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:24:01 -0700 (PDT)

From: Mike McShea - m_crash_mcshea@yahoo.com

I need help locating someone in the Boston area to perform an engine swap? How
do I post such a request?

Mike in Boston

Subject: 81 IMPERIAL

From: <Mopargary@aol.com

Sent: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:59:15 EDT

Try to find a good reliable shop [AAA] recomended. Why not rebuild the
original engine, using the block & heads. The Imperial will be worth more
then. PS: Make sure they know how to work on these fine cars & they are Mopar
friendly.

Gary mopargary@aol.com 82 Frank Sinatra Imperial 79 LRE 71 Barracuda
Convertible 98 Jeep Cherokee

Subject: Losing the battle with my '83 EFI

From: Anthurium@webtv.net (Kev.)

Sent: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:42:45 -0600 (MDT)

Well I took my '83 out for a Sunday drive in the country, and of course in the
middle of no-where had problems with it...an electrical short & small fire
under the dash. So far a power surge from somewhere blew up the battery,
digital display, original working cassette stereo, all the interior lights,
and the intank fuel pump. I won’t know if the EFI is damaged until the
mechanic gets an externally mounted fuel pump working. The way things are
going though its probably toast too, and not enough money to keep playing with
the car. Why didn’t the fusible links work? None of them were blown. I feel
sick. Kevin, SLC Utah.

Subject: Losing the battle with my '83 EFI

From: "Jeff Guarino" - jguarino@pangea.ca

Sent: Mon, 21 Jul 2098 21:10:53 -0500

Hi Kevin. I don't understand it either. The cause of a high drain or short on
your battery is usually your starter motor gone bad. A direct short could
cause it to explode but shouldn't damage any other systems. I believe the
fusible links don't blow that fast. A high voltage for a short time could blow
everything and leave the fusible links intact. If I understand you correctly,
when you installed a new battery everything was dead?

Jeff Guarino -----Original Message-----

Subject: Losing the battle with my '83 EFI

From: Kev. - Anthurium@webtv.net

Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 5:32 AM

Well I took my '83 out for a Sunday drive in the country, and of course in the
middle of no-where had problems with it...an electrical short & small fire
under the dash. So far a power surge from somewhere blew up the battery,
digital display, original working cassette stereo, all the interior lights,
and the intank fuel pump. I wont know if the EFI is damaged until the mechanic
gets an externally mounted fuel pump working. The way things are going though
its probably toast too, and not enough money to keep playing with the car. Why
didn’t the fusible links work? None of them were blown. I feel sick. Kevin,
SLC Utah.

Subject: 81 Imperial

From: Mike McShea - m_crash_mcshea@yahoo.com

Let me elaborate on my posting about the engine swap. I have a white with
white/blue interior that had about 90K when the original EFI 318 went to
greener pastures. I located a replacement 360 and a seemingly qualified yet
unreliable individual to do the swap (this was all on a shoe-string budget
mind you) but naturally complications set in and 1 year later I have an
engineless car, two loose engines, a mess of parts and a headache. I am trying
to locate someone who can do the job in my garage with the tools I'll provide.
The major engine replacement shops wouldn't touch the job because of the
troubles with the EFI (i.e. they don't want me blaming them for its failures),
the Chrysler dealers didn't have anyone left who knows the cars and my last
attempt at blind posting of a "need help" ad was a failure.

Mike Former cars..69 Conv't Barracuda, 76 (how I love these cars) Cordoba, 71
Dart.

Subject: 81 Imperial

From: <RWestra@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:13:45 EDT

Mike:

Where are you located and what tools do you have? Are you interested in
retaining the EFI or are you planning a carbureted 360?

Rolland

Subject: 81 IMPERIAL References:

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:39:35 -0400

Mike McShea wrote:

I will get this right someday. When I ask for help I must remember to state
who and where I am. My name is Mike and I live in the Greater Boston area. I
have access to air-tools and an engine hoist as well as having the usual array
of tools, etc.

Mike, I don't live anywhere near the Boston area, so I can't give you any
help. Maybe you could get that know it all guy from Cheers to help. HAHA.

However, having recently completed a 318 to 360 swap in a B-body, here are a
couple points to be aware of:

1. Keeping the EFI on a 360 is an interesting idea, one that I have
pondered myself. I have always thought that Chrysler should have done it this
way to begin with. My optimistic side says that the additional air/fuel
required by the 360 should be within the "tolerance level" of the original
EFI. My pessimistic (i.e. real world) side says you could be inviting problems
that would require a genius level mechanic to trouble-shoot.

2. You may need to do a little "fabrication" with the left motor
mount (i.e. using parts combinations from both engines). But, this is no major
hurdle.

3. If you plan on retaining the EFI, you should find a 360 exhaust
manifold that includes a provision for an O2 sensor since the exhaust ports on
a 360 are larger than a 318 and I assume you are using a 360 for additional
performance gain.

4. Remember that a 318 is internally balanced, whereas a 360 is
externally balanced. This means that you'll either need to change torque
converters (one with weights on the outside) or I believe there is a special
B&M flex plate that will allow you to retain your original converter. I would
choose the latter route, since this would avoid any hassles with a lock-
up/non-lock-up torque converter.

5. Remember that a 360 would generate more heat, so at the least your
water pump, radiator, fan, etc., should be in tip-top shape.

Carmine F.

Subject: -82 FS Imperial running problem

From: <DBKEMPER@aol.com

Sent: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:11:07 EDT

Electronic ignition will take care of the problem....been runnin mine with
carb mechanical fuel pump and electronic ignition for 4 years...

Subject: Got Home -81

From: <DBKEMPER@aol.com

Sent: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 07:29:52 EDT

Jack that is great news! I sent Tom an e-mail on the FS but haven't heard from
him yet. Now that you have her home the real fun begins. I will be back later
today to see how you are doing. Got a pick-up load of parts last night to go
with my garage full of parts car....this is getting nuts! If you formulate a
list of what you need for your car I may be able to see what I have in
inventory.........the biggest help is the Chrysler Parts book...shows you how
every thing comes apart and goes together. If I don't have something I may
know who does and NOT at Brads NOS Prices....he has lots of stuff but thinks
they suddenly became gold! Tell me all about your car!!!!
Don Kemper

Subject: 81 Imperial

Sent: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Jack R. Lindholm" - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Hi List, Well, the journey begins.......I got home with my 81-carb converted
mahogany originally silver, 140K+ Imperial Bargain on Saturday Night.. The
200+ miles to NYC in this Imperial mystery were actually rather uneventful,
and a good introduction to the task ahead..... some observations..... 'damn
this thing is big' rides smooth... even with bad shocks... (gas shocks ordered
soon) Major hesitation... doesn't like to run steady state... once over the
stumbling... accelerates smoothly,,, really quiet with the windows up... A/C
not working... speedo + odo work... rest of digital panel (including gas
gauge) NADA front end sheetmetal 'dances' when we hit bumps..... front end
sheet metal was replaced @ some point in history, and not attach with all of
the original brackets and bolts... also misalignment inside and
outside...bearings and all that rolls seem OK, no growly noises or
vibrations... I'm wondering about the factory carb conversion... (there is a
sticker on the door jamb) It apparently leaves a lot of the FI stuff in place,
including the original air cleaner which has much of the wiring and boxes
attached.... I unattached the wiring and the air cleaner,, and it wouldn't
start, so I guess it's needed for the moment.... Is there a way to remove this
stuff and maintain the normal function of everything..... anybody done this?
Also, any carb experience? this has a 4 barrel, which I'm sure is in need of
rebuilding or replacement..... I'd love to hear you thoughts on all of
this........ When I drive this car, I can feel what it can become..........
Looking forward to getting there, and the fun on the way.. Thanks!

Manhattan Jack 81 Imperial (tired but hopeful)

Subject: 81 Imperial

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:36:05 -0700

We'd have to get pretty specific as to what was left on and what was taken off
when the car was converted from EFI to Carb. It is not a factory authorized
conversion (they were all 2 bbls).

The fact that it will not run with the air cleaner cover loose sounds like the
EFI air flow sensor is still in the loop.

I have a little trouble visualizing what you got there, maybe the EFI version
of the ESA (electronic spark advance) electronic brain, somehow made to
coexist with the 4 barrel carb from whatever?

Sounds to me like you might be best off to find an early 80's Mopar with the
318 engine and swap out the control boxes and wiring harness.

Can you find out more about the car's history, especially who converted it
(and what they did with the rest of the EFI system). Maybe you could put it
back right, someday, if you could find all the pieces.

This is probably why some of your dash functions don't work also, by the way.
The factory conversion provided signal sources for all the inputs, if yours
was taken of some other line of cars, there would be no way to hook it all up
again.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 81 Imperial

From: Jack R. Lindholm - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 9:40 AM

Hi List,

Well, the journey begins.......I got home with my 81-carb converted mahogany
originally silver, 140K+ Imperial Bargain on Saturday Night.. The 200+ miles
to NYC in this Imperial mystery were actually rather uneventful, and a good
introduction to the task ahead..... some observations..... 'damn this thing is
big' rides smooth... even with bad shocks... (gas shocks ordered soon) Major
hesitation... doesn't like to run steady state... once over the stumbling...
accelerates smoothly,,, really quiet with the windows up... A/C not working...
speedo + odo work... rest of digital panel (including gas gauge) NADA front
end sheetmetal 'dances' when we hit bumps..... front end sheet metal was
replaced @ some point in history, and not attach with all of the original
brackets and bolts... also misalignment inside and outside... bearings and all
that rolls seem OK, no growly noises or vibrations... I'm wondering about the
factory carb conversion... (there is a sticker on the door jamb) It apparently
leaves a lot of the FI stuff in place, including the original air cleaner
which has much of the wiring and boxes attached.... I unattached the wiring
and the air cleaner,, and it wouldn't start, so I guess it's needed for the
moment.... Is there a way to remove this stuff and maintain the normal
function of everything..... anybody done this? Also, any carb experience? this
has a 4 barrel, which I'm sure is in need of rebuilding or replacement.....
I'd love to hear you thoughts on all of this........ When I drive this car, I
can feel what it can become.......... Looking forward to getting there, and
the fun on the way..

Thanks! Manhattan Jack
81 Imperial (tired but hopeful)

Subject: 81 Imperial

Sent: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:15:42 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Jack R. Lindholm" - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Hi Dick,

Thanks for your response... There's a sticker on the door jam that defines
this as factory blessed. The car is @ my local mechanics getting inspected, so
when I get it back I'll take some detailed notes and digital pics I can study
while I'm trying to describe this.... will pass on info when I figure it.
Also, I don't think the info trail is still warm from the original owner. My
desire is to have a fine running car, more than an original one... (sorry,
resto guys..) More soon..

Manhattan Jack 81 Imperial

Subject: 81 Imperial

From: <DBKEMPER@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:39:00 EDT

Jack,

Hope the inspection goes well. I was thinking about the air cleaner and one
from a Diplomat (etc) 318 4 bbl car should do the trick....a non-lean burner
would be the best choice. I can see you have things under way. I hope to start
the Manila car this week.......tomorrow we work on the girlfriends 83
Imp.....tune up...drop the tank and fresh gas and hope that starts
too.....neither car has been on the road in two years! Keep me posted on what
is happening! Don

Subject: 81 Imperial

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:57:26 -0700

OK, well if it is a 4 bbl, something is strange here. In any case, you gather
the info, including part numbers on the electronic box on the air cleaner, and
tell me how many wires come out of the base of the distributor (2 or 4), and
if you can see the casting number on the intake manifold (somewhere in front
of the carb), (and no, it isn't "18436572"), I'll pore through my parts book
(thanks to Elijah Scott!) and my "engine performance manual" and see what I
can figure out to get this puppy running as good as it can run.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 81 Imperial

From: Jack R. Lindholm - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 6:15 PM

Hi Dick,

Thanks for your response... There's a sticker on the door jam that defines
this as factory blessed. The car is @ my local mechanics getting inspected, so
when I get it back I'll take some detailed notes and digital pics I can study
while I'm trying to describe this.... will pass on info when I figure it.
Also, I don't think the info trail is still warm from the original owner. My
desire is to have a fine running car, more than an original one... (sorry,
resto guys..) More soon.. Manhattan Jack 81

Subject: Pin-out for a 1981 Imperial dash

From: <Imp75coupe@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:55:40 EDT

Hey list. This guy needs help on his 81 Imperial Dash. Can anyone help?

***********************************************************************

I’m looking for a diagram that shows the wiring going to the blue connector on
the back of the digital dash. It is a 1981 Chrysler Imperial. I need to know
which are the power wires to fire it up. There should be a battery lead,
switched ignition lead, and a ground. I believe I can repair it, but I have
looked inside the unit, and have decided I don’t want to guess where the
voltage comes in, fearing that I will destroy what is still working inside it.

Bill Regan vfo@earthlink.net

Subject: Pignut for a 1981 Imperial dash

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:21:56 -0700

OK, I'll send him a private e-mail with the info tomorrow (when I can get my
manuals from the shop). If someone else has the info right handy, you do it,
just let me know and save me the trip.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

From: Imp75coupe@aol.com

Hey list. This guy needs help on his 81 Imperial Dash. Can anyone help?

***********************************************************************

what I am looking for is a diagram that shows the wiring going to the blue
connector on the back of the digital dash. It is a 1981 Chrysler Imperial. I
need to know which are the power wires to fire it up. There should be a
battery lead, switched ignition lead, and a ground. I believe I can repair it,
but I have looked inside the unit, and have decided I don’t want to guess
where the voltage comes in, fearing that I will destroy what is still working
inside it.
Bill Regan
vfo@earthlink.net
Subject: temp sensor

Sent: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Jack R. Lindholm" - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Hi List! This should be an easy one, I'm putting a Viper V10 and 6 speed in my
Studebaker Hawk, and......... On sorry, wrong project..

I'm putting some manual gauges in my 81 Imperial, to get to know it better. Is
there an unused port(or what ever you'd call it) for the temp sensor? I've
gotten the necessary T fittings for oil pressure, but wondering if I can find
a place I can dedicate to the temp.

Thanks!

Manhattan Jack 81 Imperial

Subject: temp sensor

From: <DBKEMPER@aol.com

Sent: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:39:19 EDT

The sending unit for the temp light is up on the front of the intake manifold
just about under the a/c compressor. I am going to switch to a sending unit
for a gauge when I do the Cordoba dash in my white car. That should work for
your gauge.....normally temp gauges need a sending unit and some wire to do
their thing. The sending unit is immersed in coolant and actuates from there.

When your service manuals arrive it will make more sense.....now if someone
only sent your parts book up you would have some great reference material.
Basically you need a sending unit for water temp for a gauge. Other than that
how is the Imp coming!!! We tried to start the Sable Brown 83 again and this
time no luck. According to the vin number the 83 was built as a carb car. I
didn't even realize this was the case in 83 only.....but sho'nuff there is the
EFI unit from the factory on that car! Looks like I will try to limp my white
car with the bad lifters over there and just swap the set up form that. I need
some kind of fuel sensor between the mechanical fuel pump and the carb to make
the computer keep on computing...there is a part number but I bet that ain't
available any more...nor is it a cheap date, I just read one e-mail that said
to the effect that any restoration other than to perfect factory condition is
a tummy turner......very narrow sighted.

This hobby is about keeping the cars and the breed alive and the fulfillment
of the people who own and enjoy them. I see all schools of thought as a good
thing. There are the purists who make every nut and bolt just perfect.....good
for them.....but I can see the thinking of those who like something different
too.....I see my white car with a Cordoba analog dash and console adapted by
cutting my drivers seat down to match the passengers...all factory parts...and
Chrysler could have done it with ease. Now the only choice is to go 360 or 440
under the hood....but that too has to look like it came from Mother Mopar that
way. My other car is bone stock and will remain that way. Some day my Pale
Stale Green Imperial could be a red 81 Pro-Street Imperial....enough soap
box...this is all about fun and enjoyment... Oh, hi Jack....how is the car
coming?

Subject: temp sensor

Sent: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:13:21 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Jack R. Lindholm" - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Hey Don,

Should have changed the starter last weekend..... It spins It whirs It
sits..........No engaging action.. well, a tow and we'll see how much they
think of a starter on Canal St. So, an 83 carbed from the factory? Oh, the
water temp gauge is Manual, not Electric, no wires... capillary tube. And the
sensor under the AC compressor is an 1/8" electrical unit, but there is
another to the starboard side of the thermostat housing that looks the part,
size wise........More as it develops.. Also, my mechanic fiddled with the
timing a bit, which lessened the huge hesitation, and made the car more
drivable (Holley 4 bbl) but in the last few days, if I'm not really gentle in
accelerating, I get a stumble and then a backfire....... I'm also missing
intermittently.. (timing chain?) Thoughts........?

Ahh the adventure continues..........

Manhattan Jack 81 Imperial

Subject: temp sensor

From: <DBKEMPER@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:40:00 EDT

Intermittent miss could be carb....timing.,...but cap rotor plugs and wires
are the best place to start. That you can do in an hour where she is parked.
Sounds like you are on the right track but it would be nice if you could put
her somewhere and have at it! I gotta admit that you are having TOO much fun!

Subject: temp sensor

Sent: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:12:48 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Jack R. Lindholm" - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Hi Don,

Well, it doesn't end there.... so it seems that there are teeth missing on the
flywheel.... I rolled into the shop like thunder hung over on a hot Oklahoma
afternoon..... expressed my 'displeasure' @ the price of parts which I can
purchase retail for $40, and all, and told him to button it up, I'm taking it
to my trans shop... he suddenly got very motivated to accommodate.... so,
here's the deal.. starter-flywheel-trans overhaul....$610 I still don't quite
trust this, but if I can get this work done, well,,,,, I'll find out on
Friday.... So, 440, great idea! thetas the way it should've been made! I'd
love to drive that when it's done. Got to do some photography stuff, and maybe
post some Ford stuff to the IML.. (heh, sorry)

catch you later...

J
Subject: temp sensor (intermittent miss)

Sent: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:45:13 -0700

From: Jay Mckee - jbmckee@wlv.hp.com

Hi,

I missed the first posts on this thread, but I might be able to help on the
intermittent miss if it is what I’m thinking of.

Dick Benjamin once taught me about the intermittent miss on my '66 440 could
actually be attributed to a premature fire of the #5 cylinder. I wonder if the
413 could have the same problem.

Seems that if your #7 ignition wire runs parallel to the #5, the wires can
"couple" their energy. This can cause the #5 cylinder to be fired by the juice
intended for the #7 cylinder, effectively firing #7 & #5 at the same time.
Dick says that this is a common problem with the 440.

The fix is to get #7 and #5 wires away from each other. If they have to be
near each other, keep them from being parallel as much as possible. If they
must cross, try to make the cross as close to 90 degrees as possible.

This problem on our '66 was most noticeable between 15 - 35 MPH under light
acceleration. The problem vanished when I routed the #7 wire completely around
the right side of the engine, across the firewall, and over to the #7 plug.
Luckily my new set of plug wires had one that was long enough to do this.

Just a thought.

Imperial Regards,

Jay Mc Kee '62 & '66 Crwon 4-doors

DBKEMPER@aol.com wrote:

Intermittent miss could be carb....timing.,...but cap rotor plugs and wires
are the best place to start. That you can do in an hour where she is parked.
Sounds like you are on the right track but it would be nice if you could put
her somewhere and have at it! I gotta admit that you are having TOO much fun!

Subject: temp sensor (intermittent miss)

Sent: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:58:27 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Jack R. Lindholm" - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Jay,

Thanks for your thoughts on my intermittent miss.... As always, it seems,
Dick's vast knowledge is involved..... (thanks, Dick!) I was wondering about
the plug wires... small detail... this is an 81 with a small block, but I
think the same principles apply, Will let you know........

Thank You!

Manhattan Jack 81 Imperial

Subject: 1981-83 In-tank fuel pumps.

Sent: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:08:25 -0400

From: mblez@juno.com

If any member is interested in a new replacement in-tank pump for their 81-83
please, contact me directly at mblez@juno.comAlso, I've been having a good
success repairing the dash modules. The ones I can't fix is due to parts that
are no longer made because, the technology is obsolete.. I will get back to
these this fall when things slow down for me. I'm presenting working seven
days a week but, I try to read my e-mail every other night...... Later,
Blez....

Subject: 81: old message about a troublesome '81

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:02:26 -0700

This appears to be a repost of a message that came through almost 6 weeks ago.

I, among others, wrote a response, but I did not receive a reply, nor did
anyone else to my knowledge. Unfortunately, the messages have not been
archived here, so I do not know for sure what help was offered.

There are a number (like 40 or so) of IML members who know and care for these
cars, and you will find us a ready and willing group of helpers, but we need
to know more about what you are asking for.

The kits you mention are no longer available from Chrysler. There is a debate
amongst IML members as to whether or not they are the right thing to do to the
car, anyway. I have examples of each system, 3 with EFI and one with the
factory conversion. All run pretty well, but the EFI system provides better
performance and economy, and of course is THE major feature of the car. That
attracts some collectors (and frightens off others).

Tell us, did you receive the previous messages about your car? If so, were any
of them helpful?

Can we perhaps help you to get your car running right with the current setup?

Tell us as precisely as you can what problems it evidences, and when (under
what conditions).
Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: Imperial Mailing List - Specific Information

Sent: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:08:22 -0700

From: Bob Dupee - abddupee@xcelco.on.ca

I own a 1981 Imperial - Pearl White, red interior (velour) AM.FM.CB. This car
had 30,000 mi on it had been stored for several years inside. I purchased the
car, it had minor rust to the body. I had these areas repaired by a local
restoration shop. They performed a great job on the car, brought it back to
original show room condition using Chrysler specks paint, trim, etc. I drove
the approx. 600 miles and stated having trouble with the EFI I realize that
Chrysler had problems with this and came out with a carbureted retrofit Kit.
From what I have found out a number of Imperials have been converted to
carburation. I would like any information with regards to this problem from
the readers.

THANK YOU, R.J.DUPEE
E-MAIL OR CALL COLLECT 519 336 1728 Sarnia,Ontario,Canada. Zip N7T 2G7
Subject: '81 EFI timing Advance

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:18:43 -0700

The spark advance is provided by the computer, there is no advance device on
the distributor, either centrifugal or vacuum.

If your computer is not advancing the timing, it is probably operating in a
"limp home" mode - the cause of this may be as simple as a disconnected sensor
lead, or as major as a failed component in the computer itself.

The first thing to do is to unplug, clean the contacts, check for good fit,
and reconnect all the electrical connections to the various units of the
system.

If you do not have one, get a set of service manuals for the car. These are
still available, you can get an order form from your Chrysler dealer, at last
report. There are two manuals, you need both. These will show you the elements
of the system and how they interrelate, including all wiring connections. You
must have this information to trouble shoot one of these cars.

Two areas of frequent problems with these cars a

1. Air leaks around the air cleaner assembly. Make sure all gaskets are in
place and not cracked, and that the lid fits tight, and is both held down by
the wing nut and the circular clamp. Verify that the PCV valve in the left
valve cover is not interfering with the bottom of the air cleaner, causing it
to sit up a hair from its designed location.

2. Dirty or rusty connection to the inner fender of the automatic shut down
module (ASDM). This problem occurs sooner or later on all of these cars that
are operated in the rust belt, and even some of them in the southwest. You can
solve this easily, by fabricating a 18", #12 stranded copper wire with two
ring lug terminals soldered, not crimped onto the ends, then placing one end
under a mounting screw for the ASDM (clean the metal of the ASDM flange to
bright and shiny first!) and the other end on the ground lug of the
alternator.

Don't get frustrated or hurl profanity at the car (or us), we're here to help,
and your car can be fixed. It might take a while, but we seem to be able to
figure out what is going on most of the time, with no help from Chrysler.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

Subject: 1981-82 Imperial

Sent: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:23:55 -0700

From: Roland Ellsworth - amas@colusanet.com

EFI info: I had two Imps with EFI and drove many thousands miles with a
constant struggle to keep them running. There was always some little thing the
matter: too numerous to mention, but I did keep them running. This is with no
thanks to Chrysler Corporation!! The inadequacies of each Chrysler garage I
brought the Imp to did not make the matter any better either, and I was
refused retrofitting to a carburetor.

Chrysler knew these EFI units were a disgrace to common automobile operation,
and retrofitted many, many of them to Carburetors. From my experience, if you
own an Imp with EFI and you expect to drive it feeling satisfied with its'
operation you are going to be disappointed. However, if you want to keep the
car original, and need some parts, I have two complete EFI units that I
removed from my vehicles. I did the work myself, (shade tree mechanic). It
wasn't that big a job, and parts are available. The California Smog Law lists
the car with either EFI or two bbl carburetor so it wasn't big job smogging.
If anyone needs additional info and problems of this job perhaps I can assist.

Extra cars and Parts: I have four 81 or 82 Imperials. Two I am trying to keep
running, and two I have decided to use as parts. One 82 gold with gold leather
and one white 81 with blue cloth interior. Mostly all very good condition..
not wrecked.

I have pulled the blue headliner out one good car. Whole interior had to come
apart to do it to, and now need new headliner. Any one know where can buy one
new, or obtain blue headliner material?

Sorry I made my first post so long, and I do hope I am getting it out
correctly.

Roland Ellsworth, Colusa, California
Subject: 1981-82 Imperial

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:09:52 -0700

For your first post, Roland, you did great! Welcome to the largest and most
passionate forum supporting the dreaded Bustle Back Coupe.

On the availability of conversion parts, I agree with Roland. I would add that
the California permit mentions only the Factory Authorized conversion, with
all the appropriate stickers and disclaimers as applied from the Factory Kit,
so for those few unfortunates who live out here, be careful if you convert a
car that you get all the pieces, including the special labels.

On your headliner cloth, I have replaced the headliner in two of mine, also
using the same cloth to cover the inside window trim pieces the same as they
were from new. I found the headliner material from a local Auto Upholstery
supply warehouse, called UFO in Vista, CA, but I do not think it would be hard
to track down in other areas. The cloth appears to be a perfect match to the
original, however, the color did seem to fade kinda fast on the brown car with
cinnamon interior, which unfortunately sits outside in the high desert sun
much of the time. Severe conditions, to be sure.

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

However, if you want to keep the car original, and need some parts, I have two
complete EFI units that I removed from my vehicles. I did the work myself,
(shade tree mechanic). It wasn't that big a job, and parts are available. The
California Smog Law lists the car with either EFI or two bbl carburetor so it
wasn't big job smogging.

Any one know where can buy one new, or obtain blue headliner material? Sorry I
made my first post so long, and I do hope I am getting it out correctly.
Roland Ellsworth, Colusa, California
Subject: New Member with '82 has driveability problem.

From: "Dick Benjamin" (bondotmec@dte.net)

Sent: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:13:54 -0700

You'll find a lot of help here! Welcome.

The manuals are still available new, I believe, at least they were when last I
checked, and at much more reasonable prices. You can get an order form at your
Chrysler dealer. There are two manuals, and you need both to maintain one of
these cars. If that doesn't work let us know, someone may have an extra set
they may part with.

To help you on your driveability complaint, we need to know if your car still
has the EFI system, or carburetor. If the latter, we need to know if it has
the factory conversion to 2 bbl, or was it perhaps delivered in Canada as a
carbureted car?

The initial timing is set at 12 BTC, and should never change. The computer
adjusts the timing as it sees the need during road operation.

Vibration on acceleration, (if it originates from the engine) has just about
got to be a miss under load, so the first step is to replace the distributor
cap, rotor, plug wires, and spark plugs. The original 68ER plugs (if it is an
EFI car) are no longer available. I have had good luck with Autolite AL945,
they seem to be the closest available in specifications. There is a Champion
equivalent, which I would use in a pinch. I think it is RN13 LYC, but let your
parts man verify that, my memory ain't too good.

While you are changing the plugs, do a compression check on the engine, to
verify there are no mechanical problems. How many miles does the odometer
show, and is the asterisk lit in the mileage display?

Dick Benjamin (bondotmec@dte.net)

From: Todd Swekla - tswekla@planet.eon.net

My name is Todd. I am working on first restoration project, a 1982 Imperial.
There seems to be excessive vibration and hesitation on acceleration, I mean
the car shakes and comes close to stalling. Can you attribute this to
something simple or not? Will adjusting the timing help this? It would be nice
to get some manuals (repair and service) for the 1982 Imperial,

Subject: 81 Imperial, Now running Imperial - Carb

Sent: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:25:11 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Jack R. Lindholm" - jrl-black@rocketmail.com

Hi List, When we last left off, I was wondering if the engine in my 81 was a
360..... (it wasn't) and finding out that the decidedly non-factory carb
conversion didn't run very well....... I'm here to report that with the
guidance of your experience wisdom, and all.... Things are a few thousand
percent better..... With the tireless on-line help of my 81-83 carb Imperial
guru, Don, as well as some seriously on the nose diagnosis and suggestions of
Dick and Carmine..... (Thanks All!) I have a very smooth, quiet, powerful,
running Imperial...... As the carb conversion was casual at best, and They had
installed an Edelbrock Performer manifold, and a Holley 4 bbl.. I decided to
stay with the 'carb performance' theme..... I ordered the Mopar electronic
ignition kit, which allowed me to remove the rest of the EFI stuff on the
aircleaner, and accompanying harness. For the moment, I have a generic 14"
chrome air cleaner on it.. Oh, I also replaced the (heavily fouled) plugs,
with Splitfires..... noticeable difference, right away.. and today, I just
installed a Carter AFB 625 CFM carb.... Beautiful piece of work, bright
aluminum... runs great right out of the box..... (I had been plagued with
massive hesitation, and back firing) The car was just barely functional 1 week
ago, and now.... I'm amazed anything that ran so poorly, could run so
well....I've been ordering stuff from Summit Racing.... Great prices, great
service............ Well, much more to do.... (much..), but I've made great
strides in the last month, and with your help, my Imperial education continues
boldly forward.........

More soon..
Manhattan Jack 81 Imperial (running smooooothly)

Subject: 81 Imperial, Now running Imperial esq....

From: DBKEMPER@aol.com

Sent: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:22:19 EDT

Keep up the good work.....the Manila car is having one fit after
another.....next order is drop the oil pan....no oil pressure!!!! AM I HAVING
FUN YET?

Subject: 81-83 parts needed

From: Stude1966@aol.com

Sent: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 23:14:48 EDT

I replace my antenna motor with an aftermarket unit and used the top fender
mounting. Works fine, looks fine.

Subject: Starting problems

Sent: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:48:45 -0600

From: Todd Swekla - tswekla@planet.eon.net

Hi again group

A question/ inquiry into a starting problem I have with my 82 Imperial.

When you turn the key you get NOTHING. Turn it again, you get NOTHING, turn it
for the third time and vroooom. Is the problem related to the starter or
another ignition part??

I would assume that if the starter is missing teeth on the flywheel, it would
cause this delayed start.

Please confirm or deny my assumption.

Thanks a bunch

Todd 82 Imperial

Subject: Starting problems

From: t3176@flash.net

Sent: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 23:16:10 +0000

Todd Swekla wrote:

Hi again group

A question/ inquiry into a starting problem I have with my 82 Imperial. When
you turn the key you get NOTHING. Turn it again, you get NOTHING, turn it for
the third time and vroooom. Is the problem related to the starter or another
ignition part?? I would assume that if the starter is missing teeth on the
flywheel, it would cause this delayed start.

If you were missing teeth, you would hear the starter run regardless. Perhaps
grinding noises.

Suspect bad starter relay.

Carmine F.

Please confirm or deny my assumption.
Thanks a bunch
Todd 82 Imperial
Subject: Starting problems

Sent: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 02:01:41 -0700

From: Bob Schmitt - bsbrbank@pacbell.net

Todd -

Also check the neutral safety switch (on trans). It also could be an ignition
switch going bad. When you turn the key you get NOTHING. Turn it again, you
get NOTHING, turn it f