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Introduction - 81-83 FI Imperials - Technical Advice Here are nearly 3 years of email on the 1981-83 Imperial, primarily on fuel injection issues. There are nearly 500 pages of messages here, loosely organized into fuel injection, electrical, chassis, A/C and other categories. The “late 1999” messages are at the end and are not categorized. Note that these messages use the “outline” feature of Word to identify categories, message subject and date sent as sub-headings - we could use your help to organize this. All the authors of this document retain all rights of authorship, including this author’s editing and organization. This document is copyrighted and cannot be reproduced, except for personal use without written permission. Bob Schmitt, January 15, 2000 Subject: 81-83 FI Imperials - Technical Advice Introduction Sent: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:06:31 -0700 From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net Dick, Carl, Frank, etc. - I talked to Carl briefly today (about the statewide meet) and think you guys are very close to creating the definitive document - I know about 80% of it has already been posted as messages and Carl probably has the finishing touches. I suspect the hardest part is to "get your arms around" the topic. I'd like to help, but don't know a things about the cars (and don't own) but strongly suggest you try the "Frequently Asked Questions" style. Heck, most of the posts were written as a reply to a specific question. You could start off: What is unique about the FI on the '81 - '83 Imperials? What are the components of the FI? How do I troubleshoot a hard-starting condition? etc. I'm sure you can pick up on this and refine it. One nice thing about questions is that they also lend themselves to an "outline" format and, if you're using Word and never have tried the "outline" feature, it is pretty slick for organizing. I've got a lot of old messages and could start, but I know there are many more people who could do a better job because they know what they are writing about. Do it! And thanks in advance! Bob (still working on the Imperial FAQ) As for volunteering to organize, edit and post all the info on these cars that has been submitted in the year and a half that I have been a member, Tony and I discussed my doing this at one time, but I have not done anything with the assignment, due to a total lack of understanding as to how to proceed, and my belief that others with more computer savvy would be better at it than I, while I can probably make the most significant contribution to the IML by continuing to field technical questions that I have some experience or knowledge about, and let others manage the web site files. As far as I am concerned, the assignment is still unfilled, and definitely would be valuable contribution from whoever was willing to tackle it. Perhaps Tony will have a comment also. Dick Benjamin Subject: 81-83 FI Imperials - Technical Advice Introduction Sent: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:47:04 -0800 From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net Carmine - Thanks for the FI tips. I've collected all the e-mail on this topic from the last 2 years and sent it to Dick Benjamin so that he can put it into a good order for eventual posting on the web site. Carl Baty also has a wealth of info on this topic and will hopefully help with review and comments. Bob Subject: 81-83 Imperial - General Description From: "Dick Benjamin" Sent: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:23:59 -0800 Walter; The '81-'83 cars are delightful drivers, with styling and features that rival much newer cars. The standard engine was a normal 318 (5.2L) with a computer controlled EFI system and combustion control computer, which gave excellent performance and economy, at the expense of difficult maintenance and parts availability if problems do occur, especially with poorly trained mechanics. If this car has the factory conversion to carburetor, it will be the same in characteristics and serviceability as any other carbureted early 80's Chrysler product. It will still have a computer controlled ignition system, dash board, and mixture control on the carburetor, the same as any other car from that era. It should be no more and no less trouble to maintain. If the conversion was not done at a dealership with factory supplied parts, you are going to need more information about the car, since the manuals will not cover it. If you'd like to take a look at the fuel system and see if it is a 2 barrel carburetor, and if so what number, and also check the numbers on the computer module on the air cleaner, we can probably tell you if it is the authorized conversion. Another thing to note is whether or not the fuel MPG readout is functional, and all other dash features seem to work OK. For instance, check the average MPG readout to see if it is reasonable. With a carburetor I would expect the long term average to be about 14 -15 MPG. If the conversion is not the authorized one, I think you may have trouble passing the smog inspection (I know you would not pass in California) and you will have trouble getting the car serviced unless you have a really savvy mechanic. Dick Benjamin Subject: 81-83 Imperial - General Description From: Eddenbud@aol.com Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 00:18:27 EST Dear Grady, I've owned my '81 for about four years and my '82 FS for about seven months. My '81 has been converted (by the previous owner) to a non-Chrysler carb. setup, a Holley 4-barrel, while my '82 has the original EFI system. So I'm pretty familiar with the contrast between the two systems and peculiarities of the cars. As Dick Benjamin pointed out, if a car you're considering has been converted, it's best if it's the Chrysler-designed and supplied conversion. This conversion replaced A LOT of parts, including the gas tank, wiring harness, manifold, etc., and it provided reliable performance AND all of the inputs to the computer necessary for proper fuel calculations on the Information Center. Non-Chrysler conversions may not; for example, my '81, with it's non-standard conversion, does not have an input for fuel burn rate, and so always reads 99.9 MPG (I WISH!!!). Despite these shortcomings, the car does run very well. I feel that the EFI system is very good too, although it can be very difficult to properly diagnose problems, even to the experienced mechanic--You should see the terrified reactions I've gotten from Chrysler mechanics when pulling into the dealership with one of these cars!! Nonetheless, my '82 is generally a pleasure to drive as well. Whether you choose an EFI or converted model, you MUST get the complete service manual set, including the service manual, engine performance manual, and (if you can find it) service-bulletin manual. These will prove an invaluable source in leading you and/or your mechanic through diagnostic procedures. Although both of my Imperials have very good reliability records, I would not rely on one as my only source of transport; they're just not as reliable as a brand new modern car, but how could they be? Since they can be finicky and difficult to diagnose, you might be without wheels for a few days while you or your mechanic tries to figure out what the problem is. On the other hand, I've never had a sudden failure of one of these cars. They always give you signs of an impending problem, and if you heed those warnings, you won't be left stranded. Here are some other things to watch for when car shopping: The '81's (at least early- run '81's) were notorious for the deck lid rotting out as Chrysler did not provide a proper drain hole (this was an early service bulletin), and the lid would rust from the inside out. My '81 did this, and I was able to replace it with a like-new one. On the other hand, my '82 shows no signs at all of such a problem, as the drain hole problem had probably been corrected on the line by that point. If the car's been converted to carb., look carefully at how the fuel lines have been routed. You could wind up with a fire if the lines are not properly routed and secured. As per my previous IML letters, the '81 search-tune radio is an atrocity in engineering, and finding anyone who'll actually touch the thing to work on it is about as easy as finding one that actually works! I'd suggest replacing it with a modern stereo if you get a car with one of those, and hang on to the radio for posterity! The GOOD NEWS is these cars are really a pleasure to drive. I love driving both of mine. They ride super quiet, soft and comfy, yet still handle better than the whales of previous generations. And the styling is contemporary even on today's roads with aerodynamic "bubble" cars everywhere you look. You will draw admiring glances from any car enthusiast you pass, and you'll hear countless words of praise. Good luck in your search!! ED F Subject: 81 Basic Operation of the EFI ASDM & Other Components Sent: 8/11/97 2:15 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com The last few days, Jeff Gaurino, Frank C, Mike Bleznyk, Bob Harris and I have been having an off-line discussion about the operation of an important component of the EFI system. Our jump off point was a very thorough analysis that Jeff did back in June, and sent to me for comment. I was too busy to respond until this weekend, but now I have made a few observations about Jeff's work and bounced them back to him and the rest of the group, and between us we have come up with an analysis that is pretty damn close, we think. I have not been copying you and the IML thus far, because we are still arguing about some items, and because our discussions really are not going to make sense unless one has access to Jeff's schematics (which of course you have posted on the web page) and unless one is an EE or close to it. Now, though, I think we are ready for prime time. Close enough to put it out to the whole IML, at least those who have an interest in the frailties and foibles of the '81-83 EFI system. I am going to delete some of the detailed circuit analysis from this message, however, you are welcome to a copy of any and all of our discussions, warts and all, if you want to archive it. What I am sending you now is probably still more detailed than most will want, but some members probably will want to see this level of detail, and the others can just let their eyes glaze over. So, here goes: Restating Jeff's theory of operation: The ASDM (AKA ASD) connections: pin 1 is solid battery voltage when the starter is cranking, is pulled firmly back to 0 when not cranking, (by the starter solenoid). pin 2 (the output from the ASD) is solid battery voltage when the fuel pumps and EFI system are up and running (ASD makes the decision based on the other 4 inputs) pin 3 is solid battery voltage when the ignition is on (starting or running) pin 4 is the control pump drive signal, which varies from battery voltage to zero depending on how much fuel the system is calling for. It will be solid battery voltage during the initial purge cycle (a second or so) and then settle down to some low value depending on what the open loop program calls for in the CCC. pin 5 is the drive signal to the ignition coil. It will chop from almost 0 to about 6 or 7 volts while the car is running. NOTE WELL THAT THERE IS NO GROUND CONNECTION WIRE TO THE ASDM, rather it relies on the mounting bolt to the fender, and note also that the circuitry is likely to be quite sensitive, since it involves TTl logic NAND gates connected as latching bistable circuits, thus making Bob Harris' recommendation of a separate ground wire to the reference ground for the CCC a mandatory design fix. Those cars still running without this added ground are asking for starting and mysterious cutting out trouble. I would suggest at least a #14 wire right to the ground lug on the right rear of the Intake manifold, where most of the EFI system is grounded. The ASD should be isolated from the body ground at its mounting to prevent noise on the body ground from upsetting the circuit. NORMAL OPERATION OF THE ASD Upon initial power up, the Ignition comes on, then the Cranking signal. The control pump will not be running since its power source (the power module in the hydraulic support assembly) does not receive power until the ASD says so. Therefore the pin 4 input to the ASD is held low by the pump windings, and the ASDM is waiting for the crank signal As soon as that occurs, This pulls in the relay inside the ASD which supplies power to the rest of the EFI system, including the intank fuel pump. The control pump starts to run in the HSA, and its drive signal appears at pin 4 of the ASD. The pin 5 signal also appears at this time, and if the engine starts, takes over holding up the ASDM in the "ON" state after the cranking signal goes away. Thus the ASD continues to supply power to the system and we are merrily on our way. FAILURE TO START : If the engine does not start, and the cranking persists, the running of the control fuel pump will continue until about 20 seconds elapse, then the ASDM shuts down to avoid hydrostatic (fluid) lock from too much fuel being pumped. The owner only knows his car isn't starting, he doesn't realize all power has been removed from the EFI system including the fuel pumps. Bye and bye, he gets the hint, and releases the key to the IGN position. If he goes back to cranking without cycling the switch to off, the car will crank but it won't fire because the whole system is dead. He has to reset the ASDM circuit to normal by turning the key off for an instant, then the whole process can proceed again. If he does this immediately, ASDM shutdown will occur much quicker this time, since the ASDM has a memory which persists for a minute or so and will prevent pumping more than a few seconds the second and subsequent tries. That is why the control fuel pump (the one inside the air cleaner) runs for about 20 seconds the first time you try, then progressively shorter periods down to only a few seconds or until the car starts. When the car starts, the coil drive signal takes over as detailed above, and the ASD ignores the Crank signal until the next cycle. If for some reason the car stalls, the coil drive signal goes away and the ASD shuts down immediately. If a noise pulse finds its way into the logic circuit, the same thing will happen. The only way to get the engine running again is to turn the key off and restart. THIS EXPLAINS THE MYSTERIOUS SHUTTING DOWN OF THE ENGINE DURING NORMAL DRIVING THAT MANY HAVE EXPERIENCED! Add the ground wire and isolate the ASDM box from the fender electrically, as discussed above, to avoid this dangerous possibility. Subject: 81-83 FI Schematic board layouts and Theory of
Operation From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) The project to make available the schematics, board layouts, and tentative theory of operation of the three major components of the 81-83 Imperial Fuel Injection system has reached a major milestone. Tony now has available the information in downloadable format, please contact him for color copies if you need them. Color is required to follow the board layouts since the two sides of the board are shown in contrasting colors. Be warned, they are large, roughly 1.2 Megabytes. [If you want a copy of these eight GIF files, please e-mail me at XXLTONY@CTS.COM and ask for a copy! - Tony] The components covered are: Automatic Shutdown Module (schematic, board layout)
Fuel Flowmeter (schematic, board layout) This has turned out to be a major advance in knowledge about this system, and much gratitude is due IML member Jeff Guarino, who had the skill, interest, and fortitude to remove the gunk from the boards on his '82 and trace the circuits. IML member Chris Hoffman has taken many hours of his time to convert the hand drawn input from Jeff to a downloadable graphic format and nursemaid the undersigned through getting them to display properly on a PC. (Both Chris and IML meister Tony use MAC's). We know there are a few typo's and other minor errors in these, do not take them as guaranteed perfect. The EE's in the group who have the time and interest will hopefully study them, as will I, and feed in corrections as discovered. I will be the contact point for this, and will update Tony’s files as needed. What a group we've got here with the IML, guys - when even the Chrysler Corporation threw up its hands over trying to keep these things on the road, our little seat of the pants operation is going to be the main source of maintenance and repair information in their stead. Now if we can only find a test set! Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 81 FI - CCC Electronics Circuit Diagrams Sent: 2/13/97 9:47 AM From: jguarino@pangea.ca (jeff guarino) Hello Dick, I'm glad you got the diagrams and that you got them in good shape. I've been fairly busy the last week, only now getting time to reply. Your right about the amount of time it took to decipher the circuit boards and put it down on paper but I spread it out over a month or so doing a little every now and then when I felt like it. The hardest part is scraping all of the jelly or whatever you want to call it off the components. At the time (two years ago) I wanted to analyze it future but I shorted out my power supply and a bunch of other more pressing things came up after which I kinda lost interest. Just this year I bought a used FI system for $200 CDN and the car ran fine. I tried substituting back the old parts one at a time and found out none of them were any good. That is all four boards were shot (the CCC, fuel flowmeter, air flowmeter, and ASD). I still don't know what caused the original fault. You were asking about the 30 ohm resistor in series with the output. Well when I was experimenting around with the board the output would go up to about 60v when I removed that resistor, that is with no load on the output. I wanted to let you know about a transistor on the power module. I forgot to write it in on the diagram. It's Q37 and it had these numbers on it: o39m 1196, if that means anything to you. Maybe you could write it down on the schematic before you get it scanned? Some of the components on these boards were impossible to read or had no numbers on them at all. So I left those blank with a question mark. I'm glad to see there is so much interest in these circuits. I did try in vain to get the schematics from Chrysler. I know they're out there somewhere. I would really be interested in getting the CCC schematics and info on how it works. Jeff Guarino Subject: 1981 - 1983 Imperial EFI - Web Site Tips? Sent: 1/17/97 4:04 PM From: fc3@bellatlantic.net (Frank Cannavale, III) Reply- Seems like there are a few people out there who are having some problems with the EFI on 80s Imperials. I just added my 1983 Imperial to my web page (see below) and included some pkzipped (everyone should have pkzip) files you can download. The files are GIF format. (Everyone should be able to display GIF files.) Each file is a scan of one page. The filenames are in the format of "PageSS-NNN" where SS is the manual section number and NNN is the page in that section. (That's Chrysler's convention, I did not make up my own, which would be confusing if you wanted to compare with someone else who has a manual.) BTW, I also stopped by two dealers that sold 81-83 Imperials. Both stated that they still are willing to service them. Maybe some day I'll send mine in, but it is working OK for the little I do with it. Subject: 81 FI - CCC Electronics Circuit Diagrams From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) The diagrams arrived today in fine shape. Since you made the very considerable effort for use color coding to make them easier to decipher, I am going to take them in to Kinko's to get them reproduced in color the next time I go into town, which should not be more than a couple of days (I live about 15 miles from civilization). Frank, and anybody else on the line here, Jeff has spent (I would estimate) at least a week carefully tracing out the schematic and board layouts for the 81-83 ASD, Power Module, Fuel Pump Driver and Fuel Flowmeter circuits. He has color coded to show the printed wiring on both sides of the printed wiring boards, and suggested a theory of operation for most of the circuitry. This, folks, is dedication. Also, one helluva lot of work! MY scanner is only a black and white scanner, but any of you on the IML who would like me to e- mail you scanned images of all Jeff's work, just let me know by e-mail and I will send this all on to you. There are 8 Pages, so the file is BIG! Any of you who want the color copies, let me know also and I will let you know what it costs to produce a set. I will return the originals to Jeff as soon as I have a good reproducible set. Frank, I assume you want a set of the color copies too, but I will send you the B&W images right away. Jeff, I have not taken the time to try to analyze the circuits at all, but as I do (and/or if anyone else out there does,) I would like to have a discussion with all parties to see if we can thoroughly understand what is going on with these critters. From what I can see so far, they don't look too tough. I would comment, Jeff, that the resistor you found burned out in the power module, if I understood you right, was the 30 ohm in series with the 23 volt output, and unless it burned up in such away that it shorted across itself (very unlikely, right?) it would have just interrupted the 23 volts to the other units, which I would not think would damage anything. Whatever caused the resistor to burn out, however is another story. I hope it was just a bare wire short in the harness somewhere. Did you ever find the cause? Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com ------ Subject: 81 Imp - General Sent: 1/20/97 6:27 PM From: grad@cts.com (Carl F. Baty) Tony, I wonder if it would be possible for those Imperial owners who are writing about a specific year Imperial could put the year up front in the subject. Something link 81 Torsion Bars, or 76 Radiator Needed. In doing this way it would be possible to find the those messages which are most meaningful to us without having to open each and every submission - and those that have time can still open every submission. I am having my 81 Imperial Ltd. Edition painted over the next 4 days. Wish me luck in getting the job I am paying for. Nancy Kramer and I both own 81 Imperial Limited Editions. We are going back and forth to find out why these exist and how they are different. Anyone out there have a Limited Edition? Anyone know anything about them. Thanks Carl Subject: 1980's Imperial diagnosis, continued... O2 Sent: 3/4/97 9:14 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) From: George E.Pearson What is apparently the O2 sensor wire is thin and black. It exits from the cable bundle where it enters the plug at the front bottom of the engine computer it is a foot or so long and ends with a male bullet connector. What I assume is the O2 sensor is like a spark plug and is on top of the left side of the block toward the rear. It has a short thin black wire with a female bullet connector. I have been trying to get the reading you asked for and have been puzzled because I was now getting 0 volts on cranking at the light green wire. Then found that I also got 0 volts from the battery. One of my test leads was intermittent as if I didn't have enough mysteries! I will have to repeat the measuring of the normal mode when the engine cools off in about 4 hours. The cranking voltages at the light green wire in the no-restart mode with the O2 sensor disconnected aa surge of about 8 Volts and then a steady 1 1/4 volt. With the O2 sensor connected the surge was between 7 and 9 1/2 volts and the more or less steady voltage was between 1 and 2. It varied each time I tried. More later. Subject: 81 FI Diagnosis, ASD Module problems Sent: 3/4/97 9:56 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) As you have probably noticed I have been using your schematics to try to solve the mystery as to why George Pearson's car won't restart when it is warm. I seem to remember a remark you made a month or so ago that you have been running your car with the ASD module bypassed, and the thought suddenly occurred to me that you might have had a related problem. In George's case, the CCC is sending out a shutdown signal to the ASD when the car warms up and he tries to restart it. It would be a simple matter to cut the offending wire (#4 pin on the ASD) and tie it back in the harness, and just ground the pin on the ASD to defeat the shutdown command. I'm wondering if that’s what you did, and if so, what were the circumstances that led you to do it? Right now, I'm following the fact that his so called mechanic sent him home with his O2 sensor disconnected, and it the thought that it may have become contaminated from lack of feedback controlling the F/A ratio. I'd like to see what effect a new O2 sensor will have on his problem. Did you cover any of this same ground? Chris Hoffman has scanned your color schematics and is forwarding them to Tony for posting on the IML website. I can't wait to see them out there for everyone to use. It is such a pleasure to have some helpful and interested people to pitch in to help these beautiful cars, even if Chrysler has disowned them! Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 81 FI Diagnosis, ASD Module problems From: Jeff Sent: March 8, 1997 1:09 AM Hi Dick. I've finally found the time to sit down and do some serious investigating. I had the same problem you had in trying to figure out the logic behind the ASD operation. After almost giving up I took another look at the manual. Apparently to prevent hydrostatic engine lock(?) during cranking only, ASD pin#4 receives an input from the power module to shut down (see p 14-95 of manual). If the control pump is signaled to operate at full speed for more than 10 to 20 seconds shutdown will occur. The control pump should operate at full speed for a second or two to pressurize and flush out vapors (see p 14-86). By taking another module apart I found out the chip is a 4011 chip. Simply 4 nand gates, which I had already suspected. By testing the circuit I've discovered the following: ASD pin#4 must be grounded before power is applied to the circuit. This ensures pin 12 stays low. The circuit consisting of the two nand gates (pins 8,9,10,11,12,13) and D26 act like a flip flop. If ASD pin #4 is left open pin 12 always jumps high when power is applied disabling the start pin ASD pin#1. So we've established that ASD pin #4 must be low before power is applied to ASD pin #3 (run). When it's done in this order pin 12 stays low and if ASD pin#1 is now held low the relay comes on. Now leaving ASD pin#1 low and disconnecting ASD pin#4 (to simulate hydrostatic lock) C21 and C31 charge up, taking 15 to 20 seconds and cause pin 12 to go high and the relay shuts off. Next I disconnected ASD pins #1 and #3 and connected back ASD pin #4. C31 is discharged but C21 still has some voltage across it (8v). Then I connected back ASD pins #3 and #1 in that order and the relay came on. Now disconnecting ASD pin #4 caused the relay to shut off after only 5 seconds because C31 and C21 charged up faster due to remaining charge on C21. This is exactly what it says should happen in the manual. So after the engine starts (which I simulated by making pin 5 high), I disconnected the voltage on ASD pin #1 and the relay stayed on. Then I disconnected ASD pin#4 from it's grounded state and nothing happened, the relay stayed on indefinitely. Actually I've been trying to figure this out on and off for the last couple of years and now I'm extremely pleased that I've figured it out. Let me know if this makes sense to you or have I made more mistakes? The first ASD that I took apart had what looks like a diode added on as a cure for something. That is Dx between pin 5 and pin 3. This second ASD doesn't have this diode and has only a 100k resistor in place of R15 and Rx. Also I received a circuit diagram, one I've never seen before from Glen Nettelton. It clearly shows a feedback signal originating from pin 6 of the power module going to the CCC and ASD. Well I think this is enough for one day, isn't it? hear from you later, Jeff Guarino Subject: 82 FS EFI and some Electrical problems - O2 Sent: 6/11/97 12:40 AM From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J.Harris) I feel like I came in the middle of the movie, but it sounds like your bulkhead disconnect on the firewall is not tight, moisture is getting in and affecting your electrical system. This is neither hard to check nor to fix. I also tend to think that the oil in the Air Cleaner is from a bad PCV Valve, or the rest of the system is blocked - the hose or port in the base of the Throttle Body. It's not a bad idea to remove the Throttle Body and clean it up with carburetor, (spray), cleaner. You can also check the Oxygen Sensor circuit in the following manner: Engine must be warm. Separate the lead coming from the sensor at the rubber connector. With the engine running, hold the male end of the lead in your right index and thumb fingers and rest your left index finger on the battery positive post. The engine idle speed should decrease and if you hold it long enough, the engine will stall. The alternate response is to then switch the left hand fingers to the battery negative post - the idle speed should increase and the engine will run very rich. If you get no response at all, then the electrical circuit from the connector to the CCC is broken, (open), or the computer is defective. Often the very end of the wire to the CCC at position number 12 on the CCC connector is open due to too much handling, but it can be repaired. If the CCC responds to both of these tests, but the engine does nothing when the connection to the sensor is replaced, the Oxygen Sensor is defective. When defective or the electrical connection to the CCC is bad, the CCC will default a rich mixture to the fuel system, the engine will smell rich at idle, but the idle speed will become most steady but funniest of all, the gas mileage difference is not measurable! There are two metal breather ports inside the intake manifold on these engines that deliver the exhaust gases to the incoming air when the EGR valve is open. I would say that these are probably blocked solid if you haven't cleaned them and hence the EGR system is not working even if the valve is working. On the good side, the EGR system only reduces gas mileage and tends to cool the Air/Fuel mixture to the extent that it helps prevent "pinging" on a hot, dry day. There is another quirk on these cars that many of you might not know about and it is this: The metal-to-hose connection on the AC discharge line near the muffler is very prone to leak. The AC lubricant will drip down onto both of the Field Brush pockets on the rear of the 114 amp alternator and render them useless. The ultimate damage is a highly overcharged battery which will boil and the case will swell and distort. The hose will have to be replaced and the alternator disassembled to clean the slip rings. Good time to replace the brushes. I believe there were two kinds of wheels available on these cars, two kinds of tires and either leather or Chesterfield cloth interior fabrics. Your choice was at a no-cost basis, the moon roof was an extra cost item. There is one other item that I wanted to say about the EFI component parts: Late in the eighties, Chrysler undertook an unprecedented task and refined all of the EFI component parts for this car line, and bear in mind that this happened AFTER production was stopped, long after! All of the tooling, unassembled new parts and returned used parts were gathered along with all of the bits and pieces and transported to a new location and over a year was spent restoring the tooling and test equipment to original specs, and even better. Then the assemblies were modified to include superior components to avoid early failure and operate the way they were originally intended. The results were vastly improved Power Modules, and Support Plates, to the extent that the bulk of the complaints went away. To be more up-to-date, Chrysler was ready to rebuild a production run of EFI Combustion Computers just last month, the unavailability of cores was the restraint. This is important because many EFI equipped owners cars will never run right no matter what they do because the parts are inherently defective, right off the line. New Support Plates are still available and the Computers should be available now. Despite all this there are still some nagging problems, but I am not afraid to take my Imperial anywhere for an extended trip and there were many years when that was not possible. As for the Sun EFI tester, I bought one of these from Sun in 1984, new in the box. The price was nowhere near the 1850 to 2000 dollars which was the original price. I called them a few months later to inquire for a friend and they told me that they had taken the last eighty two of these brand new instruments to the dump and bulldozed the dirt over them. On the good side, I can say that use of this tester only helped me on two occasions in diagnosing the problems with the system, all other times it was the way we all are probably trying to get these things running right. And to boot, the Service Manual Diagnostics are not right.! Knowing all of this, it might be futile to go ahead with the schematics of the various components because either the circuit is different or the components are different - or both. Lastly, I have come upon an opportunity to acquire many of the little pieces of the EFI components and that includes the Instrument Cluster. I have four pages of part numbers of all the little resistors, capacitors, switches etc., for this system and this may be a great opportunity, my question is would this be a wise investment and are there enough 81-83 EFI owners in need of these pieces. If I don't act soon, I'm afraid another bulldozer will be put to work and that would be sad. I would appreciate some feedback on this item soon. Thanks to Dick Benjamin for your response. Bob Harris Subject: 81 - Dangling tube is an air bleed Received: 3/1/97 10:52 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Yeah, the dangling tube is an air bleed, and should be there. Related to your problem? I don't think so, but let me study some. Dick Troubleshooting Sent: 2/28/97 10:37 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) I agree it does not sound like it will be a failure of the secondary ignition circuitry. I would still be very interested in the health of the temperature sensors and air plumbing I mentioned. Would you be able to produce the symptom (non-start condition) and then, loosen the wing nut on the top of the air cleaner, and pour one tablespoon of gasoline down the center screw, retighten the wing nut and immediately try to start the car. If it starts right up for you, which I suspect it will do, we have eliminated a whole bunch of possibilities. If it still will not start, then we have eliminated another large set of problems. Lets try that, and take our next path of diagnosis from what we learn. We'll find it, don't give up! Dick Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem Sent: 3/1/97 11:11 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) George; The next thing to check is to look at pin #2 on the ASD (Auto Shut Down Module) when the problem is occurring and see if there is 12 volts on the pin. You will have to jury rig some way to probe it while everything is connected and someone is cranking the starter. The ASD module is the square thingy mounted with two screws to the right inner fender. It has 5 wires going to it; one is tan, one is black with a yellow tracer, one is dark blue, one is light green, and one is dark green. Only two of them are large wires (#12). The one we are interested in here is the dark green wire. The same wire (other end) goes to the resister mounted on the firewall, toward the top on the right side. It might be easier to get to there. The resistor has another wire to its other end, which is also dark green, but that one has a white tracer on it. I think you are going to find that there is no 12 volts on the pin when the engine is warm and you are trying to start it, but I don't want to jump to any conclusion just yet. Stay with us here, we are gonna get it! Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem Sent: 3/1/97 10:06 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) OK, George, now we're getting somewhere. The fact that the car started when you manually introduced fuel leads us to the conclusion that the fuel supply is not turning on when the car is warm. We have eliminated anything to do with ignition (as it appears you already knew from your ignition analyzer). the air cleaner temp controlled flapper, I guess what you have to do is take the flex duct off the fender air scoop so you can see the flapper valve operate. It should be opening to let the air from the exhaust manifold area into the air cleaner when the car is running cold, and should close off that passage to allow only cool air from the 4 inch flex duct passageway when the underhood air reaches about 100 degrees. Now, I am wondering if the air flow sensor is the whole cause of your problems with this car. We need to get a test meter on the signal from this air flow sensor and see if it is telling the fuel system to start up and supply fuel when the car is warm. (Once you get the engine running, it is apparently OK, so we seem to have a chicken and egg situation). Another possibility is that the Automatic shutdown module is telling the fuel system to sleep. Unfortunately my Engine manual is down at my shop and I need to study it some before I can tell you specifically what wire to look at. Since you have an IGN analyzer, can I also assume you have a VOM? We'll get this critter straightened out, never lose hope! I'll talk to you more later (this evening) Dick. Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem Sent: 3/2/97 5:37 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Ah HAH! We're homing in on this one. Not to brag, but that’s two for two as to what we though you would find (the 14 volts is right with the engine running, and it should have had battery voltage while cranking, which would be between 10 and 12 volts). Let me think about this for a while. the history of the problem as described in the note to your son; MY GAWD! You must be an extraordinarily patient man. I think you have an excellent small claims case (but I'm no lawyer). At the very least, you should contact the appropriate corporate management and tell them the facts just as you did here, with no emotion or flamethrowing. If I were running the business, I would certainly want to know how my customers were being treated. Damn, they really screwed up a beautiful and valuable car. We'll fix the FI, just hang in there. Dick Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem Sent: 3/3/97 10:07 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) OK, George, I printed out your results and rearranged the columns. I wish I knew why the E-mail does that to tables. Anyway, I got most of the info I need. The pin 4 voltage of 1.3 volts in the no-start condition. is probably the root of the problem, unfortunately this lets the ASD off the hook, we've got to look into the CCC and the power module. I would like to know what this voltage is when the car is cranking in the conditions where it will start. I assume its 0 or thereabouts, and I know its hard to do, since the car will start pretty quickie and only give you an instant to notice, but if you could get someone to crank it for you when it cools off so that you know it will restart, it would be nice to know what the normal voltage is here. As I say, anything below about 1/2 volt is OK. Some time way back when we started this discussion, you told me about a wire you found the dealer had not reconnected. You fixed it, and it did not seem related to the problem, but just for completeness, I'd like to know what color the wire is, and where it comes from/goes. If it came from the O2 sensor, it is probably related to the problem, because the car would have been driven with no power to the O2 sensor, which would probably poison it. It is out of the picture on a cold start, and would cause the same symptoms as you are seeing, I think. (Not sure about this, anybody else out there ever run one of these puppies any distance without the O2 sensor hooked up?) Still at it, Dick. Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem Sent: 3/4/97 9:57 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) OK, George, I think you've identified the wire correctly. The O2 sensor is actually threaded into the left exhaust manifold/header, it samples the oxygen percentage in the exhaust once the engine is warmed up and it is the main control signal for the CCC. It is a black #18 wire (small wire) with bullet connections to the sensor pigtail. Is this the wire that you found disconnected previously? I mean when the garage screwed your car up in the first case. If you are out and about today, you might pick up new one (they are only few bucks) and install it. They are easily contaminated and it is possible that your whole problem started here. When you install it, if you see the need to use thread sealer on the threads, be sure that you use sealer that is specifically approved for use with Oxygen sensors. The # you want is an OS 101 sensor, very common, should be available off the shelf at any parts store. (I use NAPA, a little more expensive parts, but reliable quality). In another message, which I will CC to you, I am going to ask another guy who is knowledgeable about these critters for a little help here. Stay tuned. Dick Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem Sent: 3/2/97 11:45 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) George, The next step is to see what is going on with the ASD module. It might be bad, or it might not be seeing the right information from the other devices. One by one, then, on the ASD: 1. Check the voltage on pin 3: (heavy dark blue wire) -- should show 12 (volts more or less) whenever the key is on in either the run or start position. (This is really a check of your ignition switch, which is not likely to be the culprit, but lets be sure) 2. Check Pin 1: (a smaller tan wire). Should show 12 volts when you are cranking, (a little less because of the load on the battery, but not less than about 10 volts. (This is really a check of the starter relay, which is also an unlikely candidate for blame, but lets be sure.) 3. Check pin 4 (a small light green wire) while you are cranking when the non-start condition is occurring: It should be 0 volts (not more than 1/2 volt max.) and stay there while you crank. Ill bet its not staying down when the car is not starting, but is down when it starts OK. Lets verify these facts and then take it to the next step. We will know, after these measurement whether its the ASD or something else. Dick. Subject: 81 FI warm no start problem Sent: 3/4/97 9:11 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) George OK, I understand the "bad test lead" phenomenon, having fought such all my life. I knew it would be a tough measurement for you to make, but it would be good to have the information. I might have misled you in the discussion about the O2 sensor - I did not mean to ask you to make the measurements of voltage on the light green wire with the O2 sensor disconnected - just leave it connected. Another message follows for you. Dick Subject: 81 FI - vacuum sensing information Sent: 3/5/97 10:39 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) George; I owe you an apology. You said a dangling vacuum tube that was black with a yellow stripe and I assumed without checking that you were noticing the unused port on the ERG control valve that sits near the left front of the engine. This is the device you mentioned with the part number 4227670 on it. The "unused" connection to the vacuum circuit is indeed an air bleed, and would not have anything to do with our mystery problem. HOWEVER!!! This evening, I got smart and had my wife come out to my 81 with me and point out a black tube with yellow stripe on it... You were right all along, there is such a tube, and it should be hooked up. It goes into the bottom of the air passageway that is the continuation of the 3" flex duct that pipes air over from the fender air ducting. The purpose of this little black/yellow tube (I always though this one was black/green, so I didn't make the mental connection when you told me about it) is to provide vacuum sensing information to the EGR valve. Having this tube disconnected would screw up the smog readings on the car, but I do not think it will turn out to have any effect on our starting problem. Sorry. One thing we still have not investigated that is warm-up related is the temperature sensor and flapper valve that controls whether the air cleaner gets air from the outside world or under the hood. This is the device that is right up against the fender next to and a little behind the battery. If you look under the main (3") flexduct, you will see a smaller (2") duct that comes from the exhaust manifold area of the engine. Its purpose is to provide warm air during startup when the underhood temp is under 100 degrees. When the car warms up, this 2" tube should be closed off and the main tube that goes out to the front of the car should be open. If this changeover were not taking place correctly, it is possible that you are not getting sufficient airflow when starting if the car is warm. I think this is a slim chance, but just to eliminate it as a possible cause, take the 3" ductwork completely off the car, and just let it run without it for testing purposes. This is the duct with the plastic click-down strap clamps on each end, one on the air cleaner "snorkel" as you call it, the other at the flapper valve we discussed above. Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 1981 Imperial - Running rough Sent: 3/28/97 6:04 AM From: lester@cnwl.igs.net (Shawn Thompson) Just took my car out of the garage after a five month rest It started well, I let it run for about twenty minutes, I was hoping that my problems would've cured itself. Well, no luck. The roads were clear of snow and nice and dry, so I decided to venture over to see my mechanic once again, I explained how the car was running. After thinking for a couple of minutes, he reached down and unplugged something and ask me to try the car like that. I made a appointment to have him check it out completely NOW THE GOOD NEWS: my car was running GREAT. I called him when I got home to let him know. He claims that what he unplugged controls the amount of fuel going to the FI system and that the engine wasn’t getting enough gas. He told me what this sensor was, but I guess I wasn’t listening. When I take it back to have it replaced, Ill let you know EXACTLY what my problem was. (RELIEVED) for now - keep up the good work: Cliff Thompson Ontario Canada Subject: 81 FI problems Sent: 3/31/97 8:48 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Most likely what he unplugged was the oxygen sensor (AKA O2 sensor). This is a thingie that looks sort of like a spark plug, and it is threaded into the left exhaust manifold. There is a one wire plug dangling from the Air Cleaner electronics unit that plugs into the one wire receptacle on the pigtail from the O2 sensor. These are easy to replace (like a spark plug) and cheap, and easily available from any parts store. Running without it connected is giving you substandard power and economy, and excessive pollution. If a faulty O2 sensor is all that has caused your problems, you are a very lucky man. Replace it and go back to enjoying your car the way it was meant to run! Dick Benjamin Subject: 81 FI problems Sent: 4/7/97 11:20 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) I think you have proven that the air flow sensor IS working, or else it would not have had such a noticeable effect when you restricted the air intake. In fact, you have led me to believe the real culprit is the fuel flow sensor, which was suggested way back in the beginning of this discussion by Frank C. (and who I have copied with this response). Frank described a method of dealing with the problem which included investigation of the fuel flow sensor, and I remember him making the point that this is a likely cause of your problem, and also that it is much cheaper than the air flow sensor to take care of. You should review his original posting on the subject, it was just after this car and its problems were first discussed. Unfortunately I've had a crash on my system so I do not have the comments Frank made at the time, but he will see this response, and perhaps you can get in touch with him through the IML to obtain his thoughts again. Listen to the man, he knows his stuff. Good luck, now Dick Benjamin Subject: 81 FI problems FF Sensor Sent: 4/9/97 2:15 AM From: bmb@zoomnet.net (Brian, Barb and now Dennis) We will definitely explore the fuel flow sensor as soon as the car can be started again. What I don't understand is how the AF sensor could be good. If the fuel sensor was feeding too much gas and then we choked the air wouldn't that make it burn even more rich? or would that in effect tell the gas flow sensor to lack off the gas and that is why it temporarily straightened out? Help me I'm confusing myself with all these possibilities!!! Brian Subject: 81 FI - Start problems Sent: 4/9/97 11:19 AM From: DBaker5197@aol.com Brian, First off, you can't tell a sensor ANYTHING! (They are kinda like teenagers) Sensors send signals to the main processor and that is ALL they do. From a strictly operational standpoint, if a sensor is missing or sending a signal that the processor has been programmed to ignore (i.e. a voltage or resistance which is too high or too low) then the processor will substitute a static reference signal in its' place (which is pre-programmed at the manufacturer) which causes the computer to operate in either the "open loop" mode (if the engine has just been started) or the "limp in" or "limp home" mode (if the sensor(s) go bad after warm-up). If the car will not start at all (either hot or cold) then you have a more basic fuel and/or ignition problem. A basic test for the fuel pump is to park the car in a quiet place and have someone listen at the rear of the car while you turn the ignition to the "ON" position. The listener should hear the electric fuel pump run for approximately one second and then shut off. (Do NOT turn the key to start position). If this does not happen, then you have a fuel pump/wiring, or auto shut down relay problem, or a blown fuel pump fuse. (Check all of your fuses first, since there may be a fuse blown that supplies power to a portion of the computer) Remember on a fuel injected Chrysler product, the engine control computer is in two separate modules. The power module is the one under the hood, and the logic module is in the passenger-side kick panel, along with the auto shut down relay and MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor (which could also be causing the problem). Also, the coolant temperature sensor (located in the thermostat housing) could be bad. This sensor, when cold, allows the logic module to "demand slightly richer fuel mixtures and higher idle speeds until normal operating temperatures are reached. The coolant temperature sensor allows the logic module to act like an “automatic choke" (quoted from Chilton's service manual). Basically, you will (assuming that the fuel supply and ignition systems are healthy) have to check all of the sensors in a step by step fashion or lay out a lot of money trying to substitute parts in a hit or miss fashion. Your best bet would be to call your local public library and see if they have a Chilton Manual (most libraries do) and check it out and use it. If you like it, you can contact them for a copy of the manual covering your model year (they usually cover 4-5 model years in one edition) at the following: Chilton Book Company Chilton Way Radnor, Pa. 19089 Or go to the parts department of your local Chrysler dealer and get an order form for the factory manual. I do this every time I get another car, and they have been invaluable to me, since I do all of my own service/repair. Good luck and let me know if I can be of further assistance. Dave Subject: 81 FI - Start problems Sent: 4/9/97 7:25 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Just focus on the fact that your changing the air flow had an obvious effect on the EFI system, or else the result would have disappeared as soon as you removed your hand instead of persisting for a few minutes. The computer must have made an adjustment in response to your restricting the air flow, thus something detected that restriction, it had to be the air flow sensor. (I think). Reread Frank C's posting about cleaning out the fuel flow sensor, and give that a try. It won't cost you anything, and there is a good chance it will straighten the car out. Dick Benjamin Subject: 81 FI problems - FF Sensor From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Just focus on the fact that your changing the air flow had an obvious effect on the EFI system, or else the result would have disappeared as soon as you removed your hand instead of persisting for a few minutes. The computer must have made an adjustment in response to your restricting the air flow, thus something detected that restriction, it had to be the air flow sensor. (I think). Reread Frank C's posting about cleaning out the fuel
flow sensor, and give that a try. It won't cost you
anything, and there is a good chance it will straighten
the car out. Dick Benjamin Subject: 81 FI problems - AFS Sent: 4/9/97 7:25 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Just focus on the fact that your changing the air flow
had an obvious effect on the EFI system, or else the
result would have disappeared as soon as you removed your
hand instead of persisting for a few minutes. The computer
must Dick Benjamin Subject: 81 FI - Start problems Sent: 4/10/97 8:20 PM From: bmb@zoomnet.net (Brian, Barb and now Dennis) OK sounds good. we will try it when we get the starter
changed. I guess what I I read a message that someone had a good GIF or JPEG of
the system. Could I Do you know how many 81s were produced? The dealer in
Huntington that sold the Subject: 81 FI problems - GIF Sent: 4/11/97 11:19 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Tony has the GIF files on his web site. There was a
posting (by me) as to how Tony's web site also has the production statistics for
the three years of the Dick Benjamin Subject: 81 FI problems - AFS Sent: 4/10/97 8:20 PM From: bmb@zoomnet.net (Brian, Barb and now Dennis) OK sounds good. We will try it when we get the starter
changed. I guess what I I should really thank you for all your help on this
subject and everyone else Subject: 81 FI problems From: grad@cts.com (Graduate, Ltd) I have my 81 FI Imperial up and running well now. I
will share what I learned Carl Baty. Thanks folks. Subject: 81 Overheating Sent: 4/20/97 11:17 AM From: lvovski9@idt.net (Brian Liberman) Hi, I am Brian, live in Libertyville, IL, own 1981 Imp.
Some time ago as a Today, I am looking for a place to fix my car which
suddenly presented me with Would you be kind enough to provide few more details
about your particular Thanks in advance. lvovski9@mail.idt.net Subject: 1981 Imperial - Fuel stop valve Sent: 5/4/97 8:15 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) OK, Shawn I think we're on the same page now. If you have the shop manual for the car, go to page
8-195 and look at the This is a metal box of the size you describe, and it
has 6 wires going to it. To understand the purpose of this relay, you can read
about it on page 14-86 You can check this out yourself by pulling the
connector off the relay, and Remember, this only affects curb idle, don't waste your
time with this if you I have forgotten what symptoms you are trying to cure,
so I am not sure if Dick Thanks for taking time to help solve my problem, after
having my car checked Subject: 1981 Imperial "symptoms" - EGR Sent: 5/7/97 8:33 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Good list, Shawn(or is it Cliff? I just noticed the signature is not Shawn). One thing that is very suspicious on your list is the
EGR valve. This would He could also apply an external vacuum source to it and
verify that it The first thought that occurred to me is that your low
speed injection nozzles The assembly comes out with two screws and
disconnection of a fuel line, and Your need to depress the accelerator to start is
telling us that something (This activates a backup system to the idle switch
contact we just discussed, It is also possible, of course that the AIS (throttle
positioning) motor has Lets take baby steps from here, and see if these suggestions lead to pay dirt. I am going to copy the IML with both sides of this
correspondence, there are a Dick Subject: 1981 Imperial "symptoms" - EGR From: Shawn Thompson <lester@cnwl.igs.net Good morning Dick: Thought I'd get back to you to let you know exactly how
my car is running. On I'm listing the parts which I've replaced: Computer in 1994 Now, this is a partial list of things we've checked: Coolant sensor and for some reason we bypassed the EGR valve Well,
Dick once again, thanks Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle? Sent: 5/8/97 9:57 AM From: wes@direct.ca (Wesley T Foulds) I have a 1981 Imperial with 128 thousand miles on it
and want to know how to I also need to know why it backfires. It seems to
backfire when it is in [My request is that we keep all such technical
discussions here on the IML, so Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle? Sent: 5/8/97 5:39 PM From: DBaker5197@aol.com Wesley, Backfiring is a symptom of a mixture which is too rich.
(If it's through the Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle? Sent: 5/9/97 7:52 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Wesley; Is your car still EFI, or has it been converted to
carburetor? The answers to Dick Benjamin From: wes@direct.ca (Wesley T Foulds) I have a 1981 Imperial with 128 thousand miles on it
and want to know how to Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle? Sent: 5/9/97 8:32 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Just for accuracy, the AIS system adjusts the throttle
butterfly position in If the car has been converted, Dave's comment is
probably correct, I have no Dick Benjamin Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle? Sent: 5/12/97 8:02 PM From: fc3@bellatlantic.net (Frank Cannavale, III) Don't forget the obvious: Check the ignition timing is to spec. Check that the distributor mechanical advance is OK,
springs and weights Check that the timing chain is not too worn and allowing the timing to "walk" -- Frank Cannavale, III fc3@bellatlantic.net http://nj5.injersey.com/~fc3 Subject: 1981 Imperial Backfires - Adjusting Idle? Sent: 5/14/97 4:56 PM From: CUDAIZE@aol.com I have also heard that it could be as simple as gapping
the spark plugs I know of at least one car that a guy sold because he
couldn't get it to run The guy who got rid of the car felt pretty bad, needless to say. Mike Afflerbach Subject: EFI parts FI Sent: 5/28/97 3:19 PM From: jguarino@pangea.ca (jeff guarino) Hi Jeff. I currently have 2 FS models 1982 and 2 others
but only one with fuel I may be able to help you out with some of your
electrical problems. I'll get In the meantime you mentioned a bunch of nonfunctional
fuel injection parts. I later Jeff Guarino Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI Sent: 8/13/97 9:50 AM From: Greg.Campbell@GAT.COM (Greg Campbell) Tony and all, Thanks to Dick Benjamin, Jeff Guarino, Bob Harris, Mike
Bleznyk and Frank When I bought my '82, the control pump would run at
full speed all the time I could have waited until I got the shop manuals, at
which time I gained an I am an EE after all! I've even thought about taking
one of those cheap single [Still, I think it would be a worthy project - It
sounds like we have another Greg ('60, '67, '82) Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI Sent: 8/13/97 4:59 PM From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott) I don't own an '81-'83 Imperial (well, not yet anyway),
but I've always been And I must say that I am just impressed all to hell by
the work done by our Elijah Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI Sent: 8/16/97 9:58 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) been fascinated by them, and especially the electronic
fuel injection. solve Well, speaking for myself, the posies are nice, and thank you. But I feel that what we are doing is largely revisiting
most of the fixes that We still need to get access to the schematics for the
CCC/ESA unit, the whiz- The cars are definitely worth preserving in their
original form, both because Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 1981-83 ASDM, Analysis, EFI Sent: 8/17/97 5:05 PM From: Greg.Campbell@GAT.COM (Greg Campbell) When I bought my '82, the control pump would run at
full speed all the time I bet with those schematics I can find the component
that allows that pump to From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Greg: You certainly can figure out what would cause the
control pump to run full Have you downloaded the schematics from the web site
yet? Take a look at them, There are a couple of really minor errors on the
schematics, we will update So glad to have another EE to talk to about this critter. I will copy the other guys who have been following
these discussions, please Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info Sent: 8/17/97 11:19 AM From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris) Dick, Read your latest - here's some info, that is general in
nature, but applicable The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the rear,
horizontal flange For the small piping details in the fuel system within
the Support Plate there Bob Harris [I'm getting goose-pimples! This is so cool, to have
such wise folks sharing Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info Sent: 8/20/97 7:23 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris) Bob wrote: Dick, The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the rear,
horizontal flange Bob; I saw all the discussion in the service manual leaks at
this point, and the Now I am wondering if this could some way be a cause of
my mysterious low there is a note about avoiding fuel leaks - and in
essence it states that you One of the cars had Locktite on the threads, I forget
if it was the one that When I put them back together, I did not use any
sealer, but I did have to Thanks for the tips, I'll be out looking at the back of that intake manifold! Dick Benjamin Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info Sent: 8/21/97 12:09 PM From: fc3@bellatlantic.net (Frank Cannavale, III) The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the rear,
horizontal flange Wait a minute, there! Are you suggesting that the
intake manifold can develop If so, I think I know what is wrong with my '83! Frank Cannavale, III fc3@bellatlantic.net Subject: 81 / 83 EFI Imperials - Some Service Info Sent: 8/22/97 12:26 PM From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris) Wait a minute, there! Are you suggesting that the
intake manifold can develop If so, I think I know what is wrong with my '83! Frank, What I suggested to Dick was that it is possible to
have the intake manifold - If the gasket interface on the underside,
(Manifold/Head), is not tight, then It should be remembered that a manifold flange leak,
such as we are I'd like to know more about your problem. Bob Harris Subject: 81 FI Problem with Stalling Sent: 8/30/97 12:16 AM From: grad@cts.com (Graduate, Ltd) I need some advice in curing a problem that has thrown
me. About two months I have replaced the fuel filters. I have re-calibrated
the computer. I have I need suggestions on what to try next. She will stall
on freeways at 65 mph, Looking forward to your responses. Sent: 8/31/97 4:09 AM From: STUDELICHP@aol.com I have a similar problem at startup and have been
unable to find the problem. Let me know if you find out what the other problem is
mine only started when I Subject: 81 FI Problem with Stalling Sent: 9/1/97 6:42 PM From: HarrisWerks@worldnet.att.net (Robert J. Harris) I need some advice in curing a problem that has thrown
me. About two months I have replaced the fuel filters. I have re-calibrated
the computer. I have I need suggestions on what to try next. She will stall
on freeways at 65 mph, Hello Carl, I have experienced your problems some years ago and
will pass on to you some It is my opinion that the fault is Ignition rather than
Fuel. During warm-up, Remove the 10 Way connector from the rear of the
Computer, and connect an Because you cannot predict when this fault will occur,
I have been able to By the way, where did you get the new In-Tank Fuel Pump? Let us know how you're doing. Bob Harris Subject: Sluggish '81? Sent: 9/7/97 8:31 AM From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott) On Friday, I was driving along and saw a bright flash
of big red fin -- The result was that I met a guy who lives a couple of
miles from me who's a This gentleman also owns an '81 Imperial. He said that
he really likes the Can anyone offer some suggestions here? The gentleman
does not have e-mail, so Thanks! Elijah Subject: Sluggish '81? Sent: 9/8/97 11:39 PM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Elijah; I guess question #1 is, is the car still EFI, or is it
carbureted, and if it If it is an EFI car, it should never be sluggish! See
if you can get more First step on ANY car with driveability problems is to
replace the plugs Next, make sure the air filter is clean, when in doubt,
look through it at the Next, Unless it has been done in the last few thousand
miles, I would replace On an EFI car, it is important that the 8 fuel nozzles
are atomizing the fuel After taking off the air cleaner upper section, the
fuel nozzles are removed It is also imperative with these cars that all vacuum
hoses and electrical Has he done a compression check? How many miles on it?
Does it still have the There are 4 or 5 people on the IML who really know
these cars, if he wants to Dick Benjamin bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: Sluggish '81? Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 6:19 PM Sent: 9/7/97 8:31 AM From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott) On Friday, I was driving along and saw a bright flash
of big red fin -- The result was that I met a guy who lives a couple of
miles from me who's a This gentleman also owns an '81 Imperial. He said that
he really likes the Can anyone offer some suggestions here? The gentleman
does not have e-mail, so Thanks! Subject: Sluggish '81? Sent: 9/11/97 1:41 AM From: Imperial@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Elijah Scott) I guess question # 1 is, is the car still EFI, or is it
carbureted, and if it If it is an EFI car, it should never be sluggish! See
if you can get more I do know that this car does have the original EFI
system. I've tried to call Thanks for the help! Elijah Subject: 81-83 problems listed/Let's finish the EFI pages! Sent: 9/16/97 6:50 AM From: TZRX85A@prodigy.com (PATRICK J LE) OK; there's a few specifics... 1. New battery and starter, new resistors (on the firewall). 2. Extremely difficult starting. Didn't even turn over
last time I tried! (I The original carb has an electronic module that was
fried. I got hold of a Frustrating?? You bet!! Did I go searching for live
hand grenades?? Yes!! Do I I did go to the Web page to search for the answers, but
the link to the EFI [Yeah, I need to yank that reference. The EFI web-pages
are at a dead As far as personal data, I'm still in Tujunga, CA (just
outside of Glendale, Any help I can get from ANYONE will be greatly
appreciated! (So all you EFI Pat tzrx85a@prodigy,com Subject: 81-83 Carb Fix/WHERE? Re Imperial 81-83 Sent: 9/15/97 3:56 AM From: SAMDNEW@aol.com I have found a local in Baton Rouge, LA who has a cheap
fix for the EFI EMail SAMDNEW @ aol My 82 sat up for 2 years with no parts or kits. Darrell
Bacon can adapt a Subject: 81 w/ FI stalls during warm up Sent: 9/16/97 7:57 PM grad@cts.com From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) OK, Carl. I did not recall seeing your earlier post on the
subject, I would have Not that I have any brilliant ideas, though. Grounding the Automatic Shutdown Module is the right
move, and is recommended Your symptoms are still consistent with a poor ground
at the ASDM, and I would The reason for this is the ASDM circuit is hair
trigger, and due to a Assuming this has all been done, the next area for
investigation is any ground Verify that all the vacuum hoses are in good shape, and
properly routed. There The fact that this seems to be related to the warm up
period, brings to mind It is possible that your ASDM is defective, but I
rather doubt it. If you have A quite likely culprit is the pickup coil in the
distributor. If you are I am interested in your mention of a fuel pressure
gauge. I take it this is I know you will get other suggestions from the members
of the IML, I hope one bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 81 w/ FI stalls during warm up Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 2:38 PM From: Graduate, Ltd <grad@cts.com I wrote on 29 Aug asking for suggestions. Now I am
begging for help and ideas. I am still fighting a stalling problem with my 1981
Imperial. Most of the fuel My stalling problem started about 4 months ago. The
first morning start is I have by-passed the fuel shut off valve so the current
ran directly to the Now I will sit back and wait for the those more
enlightened to come to the Carl Baty, San Diego Subject: 81-83 problems listed/Let's finish the EFI pages! Sent: 9/17/97 6:03 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Patrick; I never saw the previous messages regarding your
problems, I have been away a bondotmec@alphainfo.com OK; there's a few specifics... 1. New battery and
starter, new resistors (on This does not sound like an EFI related problem, unless
we have an hydrostatic If it does turn over, engine doesn't fire. Sometimes takes up to 1/2 hour to get it to actually catch and run. This is quite likely a failure of the fuel system to
prime the pump in the HSA Of course, you mean to say throttle body injection
unit, or Hydraulic Support The original carb has an electronic module that was
fried. I got hold of a I think what you are probably seeing is the running out
of the potting The EFI web-pages are at a dead standstill because we
have TOO MUCH Tony, all I can do is apologize. I have been saving all
the threads since the bondotmec@alphainfo.com Subject: 81 w/ FI stalls during warm up Sent: 9/17/97 8:12 AM From: bondotmec@alphainfo.com (Dick Benjamin) Carl, I reviewed the traffic from the IML during my
inattentive period and I I see that at that time, Bob Harris also suggested you
look at the distributor If you do not have the equipment, the pickup coil is cheap, readil |