Imperial Tires - E-mail Messages

July 1997 through November 1999

Subject: Yanking the Tires Out from Under Us

Sent: 7/9/97 2:52 PM

From: elroyj@pacbell.net (Jeff Stork)

Imperialists-

I had a rather unsettling conversation with Firestone today. I have been attempting to obtain a set of 721 P235-75 R15 wide whitewalls for one of the Lincolns. It is a nice looking tire with a 1 1/2" whitewall, and is the original sidewall design for the 1975 Cadillac.

The web site shows the tire to still be available, but I can't find them in L.A. So I called the service number and was advised that the tire is on back order with no production date. The very nice person on the line advised that while the tire has not been discontinued as yet, and she admitted that it was one of the most popular 721's ever, that this is usually the preliminary step to discontinuance. Aargh.

Does anyone know of an acceptable substitute tire (same size, with 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch whitewall? Or, is there a way to contact Firestone and show them that they are missing a collector car market here?

I would like to hear any suggestions.

Jeff

I may be confused, but I recall the Firestone 721 as being one of the worst radials ever produced.

If I'm not mistaken, they were eventually recalled after a long battle w/ the government and a piece on "60 Minutes".

My mother's 77 Charger came new w/ Firestones that I think were 721s. Handled like s--t, NO traction in the rain. A set of Goodyear custom polysteels (discontinued) straightened it right out.

RWG

From: jbarrett@indirect.com (John Meyer)

I recently switched from 721s to Michelin XH4s on my '65 Crown, and here's why:

Basically, the 721s are awful tires. In the two years or so I had them on, my car would never ever track straight despite three alignments, the handling was sloppy, and they made excessive road noise due to the design of the shoulder blocks. Finally, one of them suffered a belt separation. I was almost relieved.

I (briefly) considered replacing the two fronts with new 721s, and had a passing notion of buying a new set. One of the alignment shops I use (same location since 1935) refused to call the 721 a tire at all. In fact, he had warned me when I put them on my Imperial that this car would destroy them in no time due to its weight. He was correct. The only nice thing I can say about the 721 is that the tread held up pretty well.

(The 721s are indeed being discontinued by Firestone. I forget the name of the new tire; I guess I'm not interested!)

I went to Discount Tire and priced the XH4s and some Bridgestones on the recommendation of the alignment guy. I chose the XH4s because everybody has such high praise for them, and the price difference is really not that much more than the Bridgestones or 721s.

The difference these tires make has amazed me. They are silent, the handling is crisp, and on the Interstate I can read nearly an entire chapter of War and Peace before my car wanders from its lane. The only drawback to these tires is the narrow whitewall; but do you know what? I can get used to that. They still look nice, and I can't see them when I'm driving anyway.

One other factor in my choice that may not apply to you: my Firestone dealer sucks (although they had 721s in stock), and the Discount dealer is excellent. Since they are both chains, this may not be your experience.

Regards, John Meyer

Hello Ron, Tony and IMLers,

I vaguely remember a story like this happening in the 70s, but the tire in question was the Firestone 500. My friend's dad had a set of these defective tires mounted on yet another defective product, the Ford Pinto. (Remember these cars would explode when struck from the rear.) Talk about a winning combination!

To the IML...

I haven't tried this myself, but I know a couple of guys that have found tire shops (or tire men) that can shave the tire to widen the white wall a bit. A friend in New York did this to brand new radials on his '61 Plymouth. He had the ribbon white wall shaved to around 2 inches, and the tires look like pretty authentic wide white wall tires from that era (except for the radial bulge). It has now been several years and many miles, and the tires still function and look great.

I've talked to several tire men about his procedure, and they have all said that it should NOT affect the structural integrity of the tire. The problem seems to be finding someone to do it. I have found a referral for a "tire-shaver" here in San Jose, but haven't tried him out yet.

Is there anybody out there that has had this done, or that is familiar with he process?

Stephen

Hi Jeff,

Good to see you at the West Coast Meet. You may already have this information, but I'll relay it anyway in case anybody else needs it. BF Goodrich is still selling a P235-75 R15 tire with a what looks like a 1-1/2 whitewall (I didn't measure it myself). Bill Lister had a new set on his (used to be yours) '66 Colony Park Wagon. Bill said he special ordered the tires from Wheelworks in Los Gatos. The tires looked pretty good to me, and I think I'm going to order a set for my '63 Convertible.

Stephen

Sent: 7/15/97 11:02 PM

From: pteubel@imail.safety1st.com (Peter Teubel)

I got Goodyear Regattas (235's) for $95 @ at a local Goodyear dealer (not more that 200' from my home). 1" W/W. Excellent results.

- Pete '73 Imperial(ist)

I got Goodyear Regattas (235's) for $95 @ at a local Goodyear dealer (not more than 200' from my home). 1" W/W. Excellent results.

Tires (E225='69 Electra, F75= '65 Fleetwood 75 Formal Sedan) both 235X75X15

BF Goodrich XLM's 1 5/8" WW.... $90.00 each..these were on my E225 (2 years old)

Here's the shocker: I thought (god what a mistake) that the F75 had Goodyear's! I just went to check....It has the Firestone FR721's 1 5/8" WW..these are "new" (less than 6 months old) $79.95 each.

All of these from a regional Goodyear/Goodrich/Cooper dealer (Big 10 Tires). How they got the Firestones I don't know...but you can bet I'll find out the current 721 story (I haven't noticed anything but improvement since these were installed).

George Sent: 7/18/97 12:58 AM

From: cyrius@mindspring.com (Chris Torry)

Howdy,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I have already found the list a great tool for learning about my terrific vehicle. To continue, I have a few questions:

What is the conversion for the near-bald L78-15 tires I have?

[go to the web-page - Tips & Resources - Your Car's Components - Tires - Tony]

And finally, the spare tire appears to be the original, it looks good but is it safe to use if I have to?

Thanks Again.

An area car aficionado tells me to get new radials and I will not have the problem anymore. He saw I was riding on Firestones and became even more adamant in his advice.

I run Firestone 721 radials with the inch-and-a-half whitewall on my 1967 Crown and they look, handle and ride very nice. Of course they're not the correct original 9.15x15 US Royals with the three-ring whitewall (wide-narrow-wide, unlike Lincoln and Cadillac), but they work.

A friend runs the Lincoln-style bias-ply tires with the narrow-wide-narrow whitewall in the stock size (9.15x15) and loves them, but I'm sold on radials.

BTW, the 721 has been discontinued except for one model and size: the one we want! Ask your Firestone dealer or Tire Station or other tire store. They should run around $75/tire.

Also, I know Elijah's had good luck with Michelins, so you might consider them as well!

-Chris H

Interesting thing about this radial discussion. Back in the good old days, we had a '67 (Crown 4-door) and it needed new tires (probably around '70...), and when we took the car in the dealer told us not to install radials - said the car wasn't built for them and that the handling would be compromised, etc. We even went to the Chrysler dealership and he confirmed it!

Does anybody remember anything like this?

Likewise, I had heard the grumble over the "old" 721's...and then had a tread separation on the '65 F75 at rather high speed (like 90)...the tire store I use and trust installed two new tires..I thought they would be the same BFGs that were on the car... surprise they were "new" 721's...2000 miles later it still rides like the liner it is in a calm sea despite the MS heat and heaving roadways.

Bias ply tires...Ole Blue ('69 Elec) still rides on tires my father bought in '73..and every trip gets harder to bear (and to steer)...the plies shift position more often than a MS congressman eating diner with a Baptist preacher at Disneyland!

George

As a kid in the early '70s, I remember hearing this discussion when my grandmother went in to get new tires on her '71 Imperial. The Chrysler dealership guy who sold her the car was pretty convinced that radials would more or less destroy the front end, would be impossible to align correctly, and would just generally be a disaster.

However, my '71 Imperial has about 216,000 miles on it right now, and it had radials on it when I bought the car with 131,000 miles. I've had the front end rebuilt, but only due to twenty some odd years of carrying around a huge cast iron block and all the accessories -- in other words, the normal wear and tear. The car has perfect alignment, and what I consider to be excellent handling.

And for those who haven't heard it before, I'll make my plug for Michelin radials. Both grandmother and myself have gotten a lot of mileage out of the Michelin X, XH, and XH4 series radials. I tried a set of Goodyear Tiempos on my Imperial, but it wore the tread off all four tires in about 25,000 miles -- the car was just too heavy for the tires. The Michelins are the only things we have found which give any kind of tread mileage on an Imperial -- but I don't think we ever tried the Firestones, so I can't speak there. Grandmother has also had very good luck with Cooper tires on her '78 New Yorkers, and they are less expensive than the Michelins.

Elijah

Regarding Radials

When radial tires first became available to the mass-market in the late-sixties and early seventies, large car owners were advised not to run radials on their cars. It seems early radials were not up to the weights and forces exerted by cars the size of Imperials.

I think one of the few tire manufacturers to make radials at the time for full-size cars was Pirelli. My mother bought a set for her 1970 Plymouth Sport Fury GT. She remembers that when the radials were installed, the car steered so smoothly it had the sensation of driving on ice. However, her enthusiasm for this first set of radials waned when, cruising at speed just outside of Atlanta on a hot summer day, all four radials suddenly threw their treads.

It was while arguing with Pirelli (I hope I am spelling that correctly) about these tires, that the unhappy early relationship between big cars and radials was discovered. I don't know how or if the issue was ever resolved.

Now, however, I run all-season radials on all my large Chrysler Products, and have had the best experience with Michelin tires.

My worst set of tires was from Sears. While driving home from the Cars & Parts meeting in Springfield, the sidewall of the right front tire failed. Were the car any thing less than an Imperial, I'm sure there would have been an accident. As it was, I wasn't sure anything was wrong until I detected a slight starboard list and a far away sound. Stopping and opening the door, I could hear the scream of escaping air while the tire deflated into a useless mound.

The only thing I don't like about the radials is that I cannot get the original style white-walls Imperial used.

My 2-cents.

George:

Bias ply tires...Ole Blue ('69 Elec) still rides on tires my father bought in '73..and every trip gets harder to bear (and to steer)...

Thanks for the info on the 721s (yes, they did update the model but not the name/number), but what are you doing driving around on 25-year-old tires on your Buick! I pulled out the bias-ply spare on my 72 Charger (it wasn't even the original spare) and it was too brittle and cracked looking, more so on the inside sidewall, to even consider as a spare. Yikes!

-Chris H

remember the early skepticism which greeted the arrival of radial tires many years ago . It was probably fueled by a combination of some technical truths coupled with a good dose of the NIH (not invented here) syndrome. Today, however, I have no hesitation about running any of my cars, old or new, on radials.

For my 64, they have made an unbelievable change for the better in terms of handling and especially tracking .They have been on the car since 1989 ( about 13,000 miles ) and have been entirely trouble free and, as near as I can tell, not caused any compromise to the mechanical componentry of the front end. Norm

I've got a set of Sears "specials" on my 73. Although the price was very good and I thought I was getting a decent size (235/75r15), once they were installed I saw several major differences between them and my bald Goodyears. For one, although they were inflated to 35 psi, from the condition of the sidewall it looked more like 15 or so. I checked the load range of the tires beforehand, and they were 1300 lbs apiece which should have been plenty for my car. I also noticed that although they were the same size as my Goodyears, the actual tread was significantly smaller. When you hear people talk about how 2 identically sized tires can actually be different widths depending on how the manufacture measures the sidewall to tread section width, they aren't kidding! I'll be keeping a close eye on this set until they wear out, which considering how many miles a year I drive this car will mean they will rot first. On cars like ours I would recommend a 235/70r15 if possible, but no smaller than a 235/75r15 from a name brand manufacturer.

Dan Dale

Hi Chris and All,

I agree regarding the 721s. I have them on my '64 and the car handles and rides like a dream. Cruising on the freeway is a much more comfortable and relaxing experience with radials.

Jay Weinert, Imperialboy

One further point about Radial Tires, if we haven't beaten this subject to death:

Radial sidewalls are constructed to be more compliant to lateral stresses, (that is why they look under-inflated to someone used to looking at Bias ply tires). This means that when a sideways force is placed on the car, the body will move quite easily for the first 1/2 inch or so. If the whole car has identical tires, the driver feels nothing, but if the radials are mixed with bias ply tires, and the radials are on the back, the car feels "twitchy", since when he starts into a turn, the back end of the car flops to the outside of the turn in the initial instant of steering input. To a driver who is not used to this, it feels like the car is starting to come around, and he will correct for it, which will make it "twitch" the other way. This often leads to a "solo spinout", which we have frequently on the local Freeways.

Unequal tire pressures and mixing tire brands/models can also cause this feeling.

The only way to fly is to buy 4 identical good quality radials, inflate them all to the same pressure (this will contradict what it says in our older car owner's manuals), and the pressure should be at least 30 PSI.

You will be rewarded with a much more stable feeling high speed ride, considerably (like 5%) better fuel mileage, and incredibly long wear. I have gotten over 100,000 Miles out of Michelins on 3 different cars.

Dick (ex-recap plant tire prep guy) Benjamin

Here's my two cents. I have a 54 New Yorker that came with 8.20X15 originally. I replaced them with P235 75 15XL 721's from firestone. They have a slightly under two inch whitewall, and an extra load sidewall. I like to drive my car a lot, and these tries look great and ride great too. I was concerned of mushiness when I first got them, but the dealer assured me that I would like them, he was right. I would definitely recommend a heavy duty sidewall. Our Imperials are heavy haulers.

I have the same tires on my 63 LeBaron. Again, I really like the look and ride. Dad has the same tires on his 65 Crown Coupe and our 68 Crown Coupe. We really like the ride and appearance. The tire is a good tire and it is reasonably priced. I think the last set I bought was about $80 per copy, mounted and balanced. If you are a stickler for originality, then go with the bias ply tires. I will sail past you on the freeway with a smile on my face, while you are frowning and battling the ruts.

Mark MoPar Man on the Oregon Coast

Hello all,

Please lend a hand in suggesting a tire worthy of carrying around my '72 Imperial.

I heard Michelins are good. Any feedback on this and what model?

Thank you,

Paul Riggi

Michelin makes an excellent tire that would be good for your 72 Imperial. The model of Michelin is "XH" which is an extremely durable, long lasting tire. They do make the 235R X 75 15 inch tire which is comparable to L78 x 15. I have purchased this make of tire and found it to be long lasting and very quiet. The tread pattern will not have the problem of catching the grooves in pavement that other tires do.

Paul,

Michelin XH Radials, size P235 75 R 15. My family has run these for years on our Imperials and New Yorkers, with excellent results. The current set on my '71 Imperial have been on the car for five years and 50,000+ miles, and still look great with plenty of tread life. Michelins also have stronger sidewalls, which yields improved cornering and stability, important qualities for an Imperialistic ride!

Elijah

We have a set of Sears Michelins ("Roadhandlers") on our 81 Olds Delta 88 Royale. They have about 60,000 miles on them and have plenty of tread left. They are quiet, ride well, handle well, track straight, and are good in the rain. What more could one want? :)

I just bought 5 tires for my 1969 Imperial this last weekend. Didn't even consider anything but Michelins, but decided to get "real" ones this time, not Sears models. The current "top-line" Michelin for cars like ours is the MXV4 "RainForce". I am very happy with them so far, but of course it's kinda soon to tell. :) I have absolutely no doubt they will prove to be great, long-lasting tires. The other Michelin model mentioned to you (XH4) is still available and is somewhat cheaper than the MXV4. Pays your money and takes your choice. :) I'm sure that if you choose any model Michelin appropriate for our cars you will be very pleased.

Hope this helps.

Dave Bird St. Petersburg, Florida USA

Well, it appears I've broken down and decided to actually buy another Imperial, rather than just look at them.

This is a '71 LeBaron coupe owned by George Merrick in Oregon. The question I have is, can anyone suggest a good tire for this vehicle?

It has bias-belted tires on it now that I will keep for posterity and/or display, but I am looking for a good safe road tire right now that has a correct "profile" to it ("shoulders" like a bias-belt).

Way back when people were talking about Firestone 721s, but that was for older Imperials, I believe. What would be good for a '71?

Mark

With over 300,000+ miles experience on two '71 Imperials, I can wholeheartedly recommend the Michelin XH4 radials -- use P 235 75 R 15. Yes, they will cost you a bit more, but they will LAST, and you'll get improved ride and handling due to Michelin's stronger side walls as well.

Elijah

BTW, I assume these Michelins are whitewalls?

Yes, the Michelins are indeed whitewalls. Someone a while back inquired about the width of the whitewalls, and I haven't had a chance to measure them yet. The original tires had a two-ring whitewall (large inner, small outer) -- you can see it at

http://library.gcsu.edu/~elijah/imperial/71Promo.jpg

And actually, I'm up to THREE '71 Imperials now!  One of them is my midnight blue former-daily-driver (now enjoying a relaxing semi-retirement, and getting exercise on a regular basis), another was formerly my Grandmother's and is in storage, and the third is a parts car, recently purchased.

I tend to be a purist and want my cars to look correct. I've heard all the stories about how poorly bias ply tires perform and am not totally convinced that radials are so much better. Granted radials do perform better, but I do not believe it is as significant as long as the bias ply tires are new. Quite often, when hearing bias ply horror stories, it turns out that the tires were put on the car when it was restored 10 years ago and have hardly been used so they are very hard and nearly square from setting up so long.

I agree with that - though the arguments I have heard on the IML in favor of radials are persuasive and come from respectable sources.

However, recently I got to drive a '69 Imperial with bias-belted tires, and I have to say, I expected to notice a big difference but I didn't.

The owner of the car kept warning me that the tires didn't feel good, that they were okay when they "warmed up," but you could feel every bump in the road and a car with bias-belt tires will jerk you around with every little change in the road surface, etc.

Then I drove the car and I thought: what is the problem? I could detect none of the problems he had warned me about, and I drove at many different speeds on many different road surfaces.

And I am one of those "Princess & the Pea" types - in case no one has ever heard that story, it's about a lady who sleeps on a stack of mattresses and complains that she can't sleep because there is a single pea at the bottom of the stack.

In other words, I am VERY picky and notice tiny defects in just about anything. But the bias-belted tires were fine with me. You could tell they weren't radials; it seemed they were a bit noisier (?) and had a slight tendency to be more effected by changes in the road surface - but nothing objectionable or impossible to handle.

I suppose one experience at moderate speeds in a car I'm unfamiliar with is not a reliable indicator (I guess the only way to know would be to drive the SAME car with two different sets of tires). But my point is: bias-belted are not as horrible as some would have you believe.

And they do "look" right, which is important to me (but then, you can find radials that have a similar profile, too).

Mark

I am contemplating buying wide whitewall tires for my 61 Custom Coupe.  Question #1: I am aware of Coker tires but wondered if there was any other company that IML'ers have used that are better? Question #2: What was the ballpark width of whitewall in that year? Question #3: I have heard past debates on bias vs. radial. Are radials OK to get that won't throw off the driveability of the car? Thank you in advance, Mike Blythe.

Michael & Nancy Blythe

Mike, I have generally run bias ply www tires on anything I own that had them when new. I tend to be a purist and want my cars to look correct. I have always dealt with Coker and have never had a problem with them. I have always found them to be very helpful and they have all info on what tires are correct for each car. I've heard all the stories about how poorly bias ply tires perform and am not totally convinced that radials are so much better. Granted radials do perform better, but I do not believe it is as significant as long as the bias ply tires are new. Quite often, when hearing bias ply horror stories, it turns out that the tires were put on the car when it was restored 10 years ago and have hardly been used so they are very hard and nearly square from setting up so long.

John -- 67 LeBaron (radials) 61 Lincoln (bias ply WWW's)

Good Radials will be a big improvement in high speed ride, safety and handling. By good, I mean Michelins -accept no substitute! Unfortunately, there ARE NO really "good" wide white tires, including the new radial wide whites sold by Coker and others. All the wide white tires I am aware of are basically very cheaply built tires that are made for show only.

Of the wide whites I have bought, the only satisfactory service I have gotten are Firestones, which I bought through Stan Lucas Tire, in Long Beach California. Most likely Coker handles these too.

But they are not radials, and they are not "good" tires, just barely acceptable for a show car.

The old wives tale that older cars do not handle properly with radial tires was never true, it was based on the prohibition about mixing radial with bias ply on the same car (which IS important). I have used radials exclusively on my daily drivers since the early 70's, on cars as old as my 48 Land Cruiser (Studebaker, not TOYOTA!). They handle and ride just fine at normal road speed, with a tad more roughness coming through from rough pavement at speeds below about 40 MPH, when compared to Bias ply tires.

I would guess the original white wall width for a 61 would have been around 2 inches, but others will be sharper on this subject than I. I'd say anything 2" or wider would look right on your car.

One old man's (whose father was a tire designer) opinion.

Dick Benjamin

Question #2: I have heard past debates on bias vs. radial. Are radials OK to get that won't throw off the driveability of the car? Thank you in advance, Mike Blythe.

Bogus!! Radials are superior. That's why we don't really have "glass" tires anymore.

I have 235/75/15's on my '48 Dodge and they work very well. I would never put a set of bias tires back on the old girl.

Kne.

I believe both Firestone and general make a wider whitewall in a radial, I have had them on my Cad for the last 6 years, They look great and handle well

I also saw articles in 1973 Motor Trend about the 1973 Monte Carlo, with "Radial Tuned Suspension" where the suspension geometry has different camber adjustments.

Yes - this is where I got this, too. At one time, Camaro's and probably other cars had a little badge on them that said "RTS" - this was back when radials were just coming out - and it was pushed like it was a big deal or something.

Of course, this could just be marketing BS, but having read so many articles about how complex tire & suspension design is, and how the engineers of cars work with/collaborate with tire engineers, I thought their might be something to it.

Mark

Carmine--- The only times I have heard that a 1960's car should not have radials was when I met a guy at school years ago that had a 196? mustang. He put radials on it and he said they were wearing funny because the front end geometry of his 'stang was made for bias ply. I also saw articles in 1973 Motor trend about the 1973 Monte Carlo, with "Radial Tuned Suspension" where the suspension geometry has different camber adjustments.

I don't know really, the oldest car I owned was a 1973 Nova and the manual said that it could take radials or bias.

Gregg

The front end alignment specs are usually slightly different for radials. The most common difference is a reduction in toe-in. This is not a big deal, but to be accurate, I should have mentioned this.

Dick Benjamin

Hi all, This talk of radials reminds me that ever since '64, when my father picked up his new Imperial (which he did every two years), his first stop would be the Michelin shop to install radials...... I remember as a kid, other drivers would go out of their way to let us know that our tires were dangerously low, to the point of waving us over on the highway, at which point my father would politely thank them and tell them we had 'radials'... I can still see the confused look of that concerned driver, as this new Imperial with 'low' tires zoomed off down the road.....

Manhattan Jack 81 Imperial

I think the extra money for the Michelins is well worth it! That is exactly what I have on my 68, and after 12 years they are still perfect in all respects, no sign of age cracking, smooth and quiet. The 235R70's are going to look rather low and wide on that car, I think 235R75's are a better choice (almost an inch taller, same width).

Dick Benjamin

Dear Jack,

I put Michelins on my '71 on the recommendation of the list and I'm happy with them.

However, my '68 has tires with the name "Arizonian II" on them, in P235 75R15, and I've been quite happy with them. I do not know how much they cost because they were put on by the previous owner, who got them in - guess where? - Arizona, but I am sure they are cheaper than the Michelins, and they are holding up well. They are whitewalls with a good width on the whitewall (almost the same as the originals), and have a correct looking "profile."

These tires are probably some other manufacturer's economy line, and may be sold in different areas under different names. I'd be curious to know if anybody else has ever heard of them.

In the meantime, if you can find some steel belted radial Arizonian IIs, I'd recommend them for your '68.

Mark

I agree, Dick. The thinking in tires has changed since 1968. In '68, the look was "tall and narrow" (relatively narrow). The R75s seem better for the '68.

I also try to find a tire that has a distinct "shoulder" to it - don't know if that's the right term. If you cut it in half, it has a sharper "edges" on it - a flat top with a pronounced drop-off toward the sidewalls. This, to me, approximates the look of the bias-belted tires that came with the car and keep it looking "correct." Modern radials are far more rounded in appearance, with lower sidewalls and don't always look right on older cars.

I also agree with you, tires are one place not to skimp. Even if you only put low mileage on your cars, they're worth it for the peace of mind.

But I would still feel okay recommending the Arizonians, though I'm sure they're probably not as good as Michelins.

Just my opinion, Mark M

Hi all, I'm getting ready to buy tires for my 68 Crown. I know a couple months ago that all were talking about what good tires to buy. I went to BJ's and found Michelin XW4 to be $95. installed. This is $20.00 better than Sears. But that's a lot of money for 5 tires for on a car that I might drive 3000 miles a year. They will dry rot before I show any wear. There are a lot of tires that are $60 to $70 that I think will do. BJ's also has B.F.Goodrich and Uniroyal all for a lot less, I can save $120.00 by going this way. I don't care for Uniroyal much, but would like to know if anyone has the Goodrich's, and how do you like them? Any other input would be good also. Montgomery Wards had General's on sale for $50.00 too. I plan to use P235/70R15, is this good?
Thanks Jack R. Shultz cookie115@msn.com

On the tires I have run 235/75 and 235/70, I have to say the 235/70's look the best. BFG'S AND Firestones are good-excellent tires. Ran them for years no problems.

Mike G

Jack- just a few thoughts about tires- off-brand tires are made (for the most part) by name brand manufacturers- look at the side wall - there is a set of numbers and letters on all tires that are indicators of quality and service life- traction, wear index #(the higher the better) load range, temperature. 70 series tires are shorter than 75 series tires for the same given width (aspect ratio) look on your drivers door post- there should be a sticker which indicates the proper size of the original tires- your tire dealer will have a chart- which converts the "68 size to modern size. if you use a tire taller or shorter than stock it may upset your speedo calibration. Finally- if you drive your car infrequently you may wish to invest in a set of tire covers to protect your tires from the ravages of solar radiation and UV rays.

When Michelin graced the world with a radial it was a tire that did not give or flex like the bias ply tire of the time (which was good).  It lasted much longer and improved the handling on almost any car (which was also good).  Many manufacturers were afraid that because the tire didn't absorb the shock of the road that it would be transferred to the suspension/steering components of the car (and I can guess that the makers of the OTHER tires might have pointed this out). Hence ignorance or bad info made the radial a evil demon to cars not "built" to handle them. I've run radials on every car I own (save Ol'Blue who will be next) which includes kingpin MG's and a '55 Buick, and haven't noticed anything except improvement (and if you can improve the ride and handling of a '65 Fleetwood 75 Sedan that's saying something). If nothing else they don't "flat spot" as much when you don't drive a car as often.

If your suspension is in good working order (Bushings intact et al) I'd say go with a radial..they have been designed for softer ride since the X1. If your suspensions questionable shame on you!

George

I bought Michelins for my '68 at Sam's club. The ride and handling have been great and the set of 4 came to just under $400. And that included new valve stems, balancing and Sam's includes a road hazard warrantee and lifetime rotation/balance. I thought that was a pretty good deal!

Michelins seem to work well on the '68.

Happy motoring,

Dale

OK, you all convinced me, I'm getting the Michelins. Thanks for all the help and info. I'm going for the P235/75R, The higher tires will look better.

Jack R. Shultz

Imperialists-

If you'd like to be 100% correct and original, you'll want to buy 8.20 x 15 tires with a 2 1/2" wide whitewall. It's a high-bias tire, which means it has tall sidewalls and a rather narrow tread. The whitewall comes to about the center of the sidewall, and the outer sidewall is ribbed. They're available from Coker as BF Goodrich or Firestone.

I put the BF Goodrich tires on my 1959 Crown Southampton and was delighted with the 100% correct appearance, as well as the ride.

Remember that the wide whitewall was becoming less fashionable in this time period, and therefore narrower. 1962 would see the 1" on Imperials. A 4" would be totally inappropriate, and even the 3" will look very wide because of the different bias of the L78-15 tire.

If you choose to put the L78-15 on your car, it will be more of the square-bias tires of the mid sixties (actually pioneered on the 1964 Lincoln). The sidewall will be shorter and the tread wider than the original. This may reduce the ride height by 1" or more compared to original, so it may not be a good idea if your car is already low.

Jeff
(Captain of the Whitewall Patrol)

Subject: IML: WIDE WHITES and NEW WHEELS
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:49:21 PST
From: "Makkie DeFatso" <klownmagic@hotmail.com

hey what's up. I'm wondering if anybody has a clue as to where I can purchase some wide, I'm talkin 3 to 4 inch whitewalls. I'm also wonderin if anybody knows where I can find some simple, plain black steel 15 x 7 wheels. thanks.

mark

Subject: Re: IML: WIDE WHITES and NEW WHEELS
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:01:55 -0800
From:Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net

Mark -

I just got the 1999 Coker catalog (www.coker.com, 800-251-6336) - they seem to have a great assortment of tires for all older cars. Except for the wide whitewalls, there are good current tires to use - Michelin, Firestone, Sears. But get the catalog - a picture is worth a 1000 words.

Bob

PS I bought tubes from Coker a few years ago to fit the 5.50x16 Pirelli tires on the sports car car I'm restoring - these tires are probably 40+ years old and are only on the car so it can be aligned & pushed around while work is being done. The tires have been inside, outside, near freezing and in 120+ temps - but hardly any sidewall cracking - what's the deal?!

Subject: Re: IML: Tires
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:56:23 -0500 (EST)
From:Curlytop54@aol.com

Dick:

I've very impressed with the answers I've seen you field. Yes, I'm familiar with tire designation nomenclature, and have fitted 235-70's in the past on this vehicle. I'm gonna get out the angle measurement kit here one of these days and get a LOT more exact. I may have Stockton make up the wheels I want for backspacing and corrected offset; and, if necessary, a touch of wheelwell lip bending. I am new to the IML, tis true, but have not seen any info on this subject. Have I not looked in the right places?

Thanks,

Ross Alexander

Subject: IML: Tire Sizing, again
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:08:01 -0500 (EST)
From:Curlytop54@aol.com

Whoops, forgot . . .

Dick, like you, I wouldn't be caught dead with a WIDE whitewall. I see that Coker tire is now selling the triple thin-stripe whitewalls I recall on not only Cadillac's (as their catalog indicates), but Imperials too here in Dallas in the '60's. Saw a beautiful medium blue '66 New Yorker on a terrible home video the other night, all but for the wide ww's. No, I meant the tire being both as wide and tall as possible as to increase the size of the contact patch w/o performing body surgery. I love the stock appearing (restified) cars, but with enhanced performance. I ain't a factory paint daub kind of guy . . . at least until I get a REALLY nice car. The Tan Sedan is (about to be again) a good condition 3 car. Thanks,

Ross Alexander

Subject: Re: IML: another tire question-non Imp
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:06:06 -0500 (EST)
From:Curlytop54@aol.com

As to low profile tires: the sidewall is significantly shorter, which, in a tire properly sized to the wheel provides less sidewall flex and better handling. Yes, the tradeoff is in a jarring ride. I look to the "police" versions to provide the best combination of ride and handling (yeah, I been known to drive over a few curbs; something you daren't try with a low profile tire). But I'm more willing to put up with stiff shocks (KYBs) than I am willing to put up with wallowing. To each his own.

Ross Alexander

Subject: IML: Re: Imperial Tires
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:49:14 -0800
From:"Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@ez2.net

We keep going over and over this subject. Just figure out the dimensions for yourself. The first number is the width in Millimeters "255" is 255 mm, or about 10". I don't know what year your car is, but chances are these tires will be at least 1" and maybe almost 2" wider. You'll have to look to see if you have clearance, between the fender skirt and the rear wheel, and between the frame and the inside of the front tire in a sharp turn.

Remember when you hit a bump in a turn, the tire will move a little closer to the frame.

The second number is the percentage relation between the height from the rim to the road as compared to the width. "70" means the tire is 70% as high as it is wide, or 7 inches from rim to tread (with no load on the tire). This will be a short, fat looking tire for your car, when the original was a tall thin dude. Some like this new look, some don't. You pick it.

Dick Benjamin


Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:10:25 +0100
From:Mark <tomswift@bellsouth.net

chrycordoba@mindspring.com wrote:

It would also harm the dynamics of the alignment, suspension, front end, etc. Is this true? A friend here in Virginia has radials on his '64 Crown Coupe and said they did nothing more than make the ride somewhat harsher.

Is any of what these tire people say true? I'd consider putting on newer rims, say from the early '70s, but I don't want to do it if it interferes with the integrity of the ride and handling. I'll put up with new bias plys if that's the case.

It seems like this always comes up every couple of months or so . . . that was the knock against radials when they first came out - that they were harsher in ride - but no one seems to believe that anymore, or they have just gotten used to the ride that radials provide and no longer notice it. Perhaps the trade-off in terms of stability and increased cornering ability makes people overlook the difference in ride . . . or perhaps the idea that radials rode harsher was a myth. (But in the manual for one of my Imperials it warns of a harsher ride if radials are used, so evidently a lot of folks believed this.)

The consensus on the IML seems to be that radials are better for several reasons - at least on cars from the late 60's onward.

I do not believe radials will "harm" your suspension. I think older suspensions were designed with the tires that were available at that time in mind - when radials came along with their different characteristics, suspensions had to be changed somewhat to accommodate the new type of tire. And in fact they used to advertise that ("Radial Tuned Suspension"). But I don't think there is any harm to putting a radial on your Imperial. They will probably provide a lot more safety and would be the better choice in the long run, probably.

What does the car have on there now? I would be curious to hear what your driving impressions are, if you go from bias belted to radials. I think that would be the only way to know for sure if radials were harsher - drive the same car with 2 different types of tires on it and see.

Mark M

Subject: IML: Dallas & radials
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:59:54 +0100
From:Mark <tomswift@bellsouth.net

kwdata@juno.com wrote:

Neal, To quote General Buck Tergitson " What a load of Commie Bull"

 suspension is wonderful for radial tires someone has an agenda or is just plain ignorant (are they from Dallas, TX?) Tire size- 235R 75 X 15

Good Luck,

marcus

Well, as Col. Bat Guano would say, you'll have to answer to the people of Dallas for that remark!

Seriously, I'm fascinated by this - by how people's perceptions are formed and how they get changed. I remember in the late 60's, when radials were becoming more well known, that people at first said they didn't want those things on their cars because they didn't ride well.

I believe this may be in part because radials were generally found on imports at first, and imports, being smaller, with firmer suspensions, had a rougher, harsher ride than big American cars - a quality which people attributed to the tires, or at least associated that kind of ride with those tires.

Or maybe radials back then were substantially different than radials sold today. I wish there was a tire engineer on this list . . .

At any rate, I agree, modern radials on an Imperial are fine.

Mark M
Sorry for the Non-Imperial Overkill

Subject: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:23:19 -0400
From: chrycordoba@mindspring.com

I recently acquired a 45,000 original mile '59 Crown. As we're going through the mechanicals, it's been determined that the car needs new tires. It has 15" rims. I was hoping to find wide whitewall radials to match the size of the worn bias ply tires, L78-15, which I believe translates to 255/70R15 or 235/75R15.

I priced them through Coker Tire; the mechanic contacted his tire sources, who said that the 1959 rims weren't designed for radials (true-they weren't commonly available for another 10 years) and that putting radials on the car would damage these rims. It would also harm the dynamics of the alignment, suspension, front end, etc. Is this true? A friend here in Virginia has radials on his '64 Crown Coupe and said they did nothing more than make the ride somewhat harsher.

Is any of what these tire people say true? I'd consider putting on newer rims, say from the early '70s, but I don't want to do it if it interferes with the integrity of the ride and handling. I'll put up with new bias plys if that's the case.

I'm curious what the group thinks. I apologize if this topic has been covered before, but for some reason I couldn't access the web site wheel and tire subsections. Thanks much.

Neal Herman
'59 Imperial Crown Southampton
'83 Chrysler Cordoba

Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:05:05 -0500
From:"David M. Hall" <d.hall@ix.netcom.com

I recently put radials on my 63 Imperial without any bad results. It rides and drives much better. My 68 Plymouth has had radials for years with no ill effects for it either. I think they improve ride and handling.

David Hall

chrycordoba@mindspring.com wrote:

From: chrycordoba@mindspring.com
Subject: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:23:19 -0400

I recently acquired a 45,000 original mile '59 Crown. As we're going through the mechanicals, it's been determined that the car needs new tires. It has 15" rims. I was hoping to find wide whitewall radials to match the size of the worn bias ply tires, L78-15, which I believe translates to 255/70R15 or 235/75R15.

I priced them through Coker Tire; the mechanic contacted his tire sources, who said that the 1959 rims weren't designed for radials (true-they weren't commonly available for another 10 years) and that putting radials on the car would damage these rims. It would also harm the dynamics of the alignment, suspension, front end, etc. Is this true? A friend here in Virginia has radials on his '64 Crown Coupe and said they did nothing more than make the ride somewhat harsher.

Is any of what these tire people say true? I'd consider putting on newer rims, say from the early '70s, but I don't want to do it if it interferes with the integrity of the ride and handling. I'll put up with new bias plys if that's the case.

I'm curious what the group thinks. I apologize if this topic has been covered before, but for some reason I couldn't access the web site wheel and tire subsections. Thanks much.

Neal Herman
'59 Imperial Crown Southampton
'83 Chrysler Cordoba

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:10:25 +0100
From: Mark <tomswift@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown

chrycordoba@mindspring.com wrote:

It would also harm the dynamics of the alignment, suspension, front end, etc. Is this true? A friend here in Virginia has radials on his '64 Crown Coupe and said they did nothing more than make the ride somewhat harsher.

Is any of what these tire people say true? I'd consider putting on newer  rims, say from the early '70s, but I don't want to do it if it interferes with the integrity of the ride and handling. I'll put up with new bias plys if that's the case.

It seems like this always comes up every couple of months or so . . . that was the knock against radials when they first came out - that they were harsher in ride - but no one seems to believe that anymore, or they have just gotten used to the ride that radials provide and no longer notice it. Perhaps the trade-off in terms of stability and increased cornering ability makes people overlook the difference in ride . . . or perhaps the idea that radials rode harsher was a myth. (But in the manual for one of my Imperials it warns of a harsher ride if radials are used, so evidently a lot of folks believed this.)

The consensus on the IML seems to be that radials are better for several reasons - at least on cars from the late 60's onward.

I do not believe radials will "harm" your suspension. I think older suspensions were designed with the tires that were available at that time in mind - when radials came along with their different characteristics, suspensions had to be changed somewhat to accommodate the new type of tire. And in fact they used to advertise that ("Radial Tuned Suspension"). But I don't think there is any harm to putting a radial on your Imperial. They will probably provide a lot more safety and would be the better choice in the long run, probably.

What does the car have on there now? I would be curious to hear what your driving impressions are, if you go from bias belted to radials. I think that would be the only way to know for sure if radials were harsher - drive the same car with 2 different types of tires on it and see.

Mark M

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:05:05 -0500
From: "David M. Hall" <d.hall@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown

I recently put radials on my 63 Imperial with out and bad results. It rides and drives much better. My 68 Plymouth has had radials for years with no ill effects for it either. I think they improve ride and handling.

David Hall

chrycordoba@mindspring.com wrote:

I recently acquired a 45,000 original mile '59 Crown. As we're going  through the mechanicals, it's been determined that the car needs new tires. It has 15" rims. I was hoping to find wide whitewall radials to match the size of the worn bias ply tires, L78-15, which I believe translates to 255/70R15 or 235/75R15.

I priced them through Coker Tire; the mechanic contacted his tire sources,  who said that the 1959 rims weren't designed for radials (true-they weren't commonly available for another 10 years) and that putting radials on the car would damage these rims. It would also harm the dynamics of the alignment, suspension, front end, etc. Is this true? A friend here in Virginia has radials on his '64 Crown Coupe and said they did nothing more than make the ride somewhat harsher.

Is any of what these tire people say true? I'd consider putting on newer rims, say from the early '70s, but I don't want to do it if it interferes with the integrity of the ride and handling. I'll put up with new bias plys if that's the case.

I'm curious what the group thinks. I apologize if this topic has been covered before, but for some reason I couldn't access the web site wheel and tire subsections. Thanks much.

Neal Herman
'59 Imperial Crown Southampton
'83 Chrysler Cordoba

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:09:05 -0500
Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown
From: kwdata@juno.com

Neal, To quote General Buck Tergitson " What a load of Commie Bull", I owned a 1959 Crown Southampton I put radials on it in 1973 when radials were a relatively new concept, and these were used to boot (Michelin). The wheels on that car are basically modified truck wheels a torsion bar suspension is wonderful for radial tires someone has an agenda or is just plain ignorant (are they from Dallas, TX?) Tire size- 235R 75 X 15

Good Luck,

marcus

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:13:28 -0700
From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown

Hi Neal -

>I'm curious what the group thinks. I apologize if this topic has been covered before, but for some reason I couldn't access the web site wheel and tire subsections. Thanks much.

Nothing like ol' wives tales!* Get radials! I've got a collection of messages on this topic at:

http://teamchicago.com/imperial/imptires.htm

and I believe the weight of the "wise" opinions would favor radials.

Bob

*with appropriate apologies

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:43:02 -0400
From: Terry Fallstich <falbach@rcn.com
Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown

chrycordoba@mindspring.com wrote:

I recently acquired a 45,000 original mile '59 Crown. As we're going through the mechanicals, it's been determined that the car needs new tires. It has 15" rims. I was hoping to find wide whitewall radials to match the size of the worn bias ply tires, L78-15, which I believe translates to 255/70R15 or 235/75R15.

I priced them through Coker Tire; the mechanic contacted his tire sources, who said that the 1959 rims weren't designed for radials (true-they weren't commonly available for another 10 years) and that putting radials on the car would damage these rims. It would also harm the dynamics of the alignment, suspension, front end, etc. Is this true? A friend here in Virginia has radials on his '64 Crown Coupe and said they did nothing more than make the ride somewhat harsher.

Is any of what these tire people say true? I'd consider putting on newer rims, say from the early '70s, but I don't want to do it if it interferes with the integrity of the ride and handling. I'll put up with new bias plys if that's the case.

I'm curious what the group thinks. I apologize if this topic has been covered before, but for some reason I couldn't access the web site wheel and tire subsections. Thanks much.

Neal Herman
'59 Imperial Crown Southampton
'83 Chrysler Cordoba

I've been battling with the same bias vs. radial dilemma with my 57 Imperial. Most of the people I've spoken to with late fifties cars (imperials and otherwise) have told me that radials are the way to go, a few have said that it really makes no difference in handling, but I doubt that. Usually, the first thing a fellow car owner will say to me is, "Why the hell don't you get radials for that thing?" It's usually a big topic of conversation with my car because it has triple-stripe Sears bias tires on it now, which are hideous and draws a lot of attention from those who know cars. I have a feeling I'm going to put radials on it, because I figure the handling can only get better, and that is a HUGE problem right now. The farthest I drive it is about 2 hours to shows, which isn't much, but I'd prefer to keep the car on the road during that 2 hrs. Keep me posted on what you decide to do.
Kristen
57 Crown Imperial

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:53:09 +0100
From: Mark <tomswift@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: IML: Appropriate tires for a '59 Crown

There must have been a few old wives working at Chrysler in the late 60s/early 70s, 'cause this is the tale they tell in my 1971 Owner's Manual:

"RADIAL PLY TIRES

Your vehicle is designed for cross bias and bias-belted tires of the sizes indicated. The use of radial ply tires is not recommended because of their very harsh ride at low speeds and possible unfamiliar stability characteristics. Should these tires be desired, the maximum allowable size should be selected. Radial ply tires should always be used in sets of five and under no circumstances should they be used on the front only."

Again, I'm not advocating this position. I'm just saying this was once a widely held perception, and may have contained some small kernel of truth in it. However, I think what has happened is that the design of radials has progressed a bit since 1971, and the "very harsh ride at low speeds" statement probably no longer holds true with a modern tire.

Mark M

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:29:20 EDT
Subject: IML: Tires - the right look!!!

In a message dated 4/20/99 10:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Waginator@aol.com writes:

<< I definitely agree with Marcus-- how the H can radial tires damage the rims??? A steel rim is a steel rim. Radials have been used on steel, aluminum and alloy rims. Unless someone can explain to me how radials can damage a steel rim...

I do not know if damage can occur to rims, but I have had an experience with a 66 New Yorker with radials on original 14" rims. After two broken valve stem blow-outs from wheel covers spinning on rims, I tried several remedies but could not stop the movement. I put metal valve stems bolted through wheel to hold things in place. Rear wheel covers never moved, front wheel covers moved to rear never moved, only fronts would move. Apparently, the turning of the front wheels with radials would somehow create the movement.

Another factor not mentioned so far is the correct look. For what it is worth, you just can't get the right look for a fifties, early sixties wide whitewall out of a radial. The taller stance of the bias ply tires and the look of the whitewall is unmatched. These cars drive well with bias ply tires, but any weakness in suspension and steering components will be more noticeable than with radials.

I generally draw the radial conversion line somewhere in the mid-sixties. Any of my earlier cars will properly maintained steering/suspension components and correct wide white wall bias ply tires.

John -- 67 LeBaron (radials)
68 Conv (soon to have radials)
61 Lincoln (will always have www bias ply)

From: Oneof514@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:05:31 EDT
Subject: IML: Re: Radial Tires: damage to older rims

In a recent post the statement was made:

>A steel rim is a steel rim. Radials have been used on steel, aluminum and alloy rims. Unless someone can explain to me how radials can damage a steel rim,

While I am no expert, I recall the following statements that were made, when this subject came up previously:

Radial tires cause the rims to flex more than bias ply tires. The additional flexing can cause damage to older rims designed for non radial ply tires. In particular, vintage wire wheels designed for bias ply should not be used with radial tires as the radials can crack the vintage rim.

Additionally the additional flexing of the rims by the radial tires can increase the likelihood of losing the wheels hubcaps (a problem that I have experienced).

A suggested solution was to buy new rims. Ford pickup 15" rims interchange with most year Imperials that use the 15" rim.

"Pep Boys" and others sell these rims at a reasonable price.

For what it is worth....

Wayne Jorgensen

From: Imp67cc64@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:31:08 EDT
Subject: IML: Are 15" rims correct for '59?

There has been a lot of discussion here lately about putting 15" radials on a 59. I have had a 57 and a 59 years ago and I thought both used 14" tires. Am I correct on either count? I would swear that the 57 had 14's, but I really do not remember what the 59 used.

John -- 67 LeBaron
68 Conv

From: LeatherImp65@webtv.net (Jerry Hunt)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:28:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IML: Re: Radials

After jettisoning many wheel covers on my 68 after radials, it was explained that cars originally designed for radials have stiffer wheels. As radials are not as flexible as bias-ply, they transmit more road shock and tend to flex the wheels, and send wheel covers flying!!

BTW I replaced my 68 wheel covers (which weigh at least 10lbs each) with the dishpan ones used from 70 to 74. They NEVER flew off!!! My current 65 with radials hasn't flew off yet.

Tired of tires,

Jerry
65(radials)


From: Oneof514@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:13:07 EDT
Subject: Re: IML: Are 15" rims correct for '59?

My understanding is that Chrysler switched from 14" rims to 15' rims in mid-year.

Wayne Jorgensen

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:45:54 -0500
Subject: Re: IML: Are 15" rims correct for '59?
From: kwdata@juno.com

OK here is the definitive statement on my experience w/ 15" wheels on MY '59 Southampton- Yes I owned and drove this car for several years, yes it had stock 15" wheels which were interchangeable w/Phord pick up trucks. Yes I did mount second hand Michelins on the car. One night my college roommate and I liberated a full length beveled glass mirror from a 1920's house that was being torn down on Classen Blvd. in Oklahoma City. Yes an OKC cop saw us back out of the driveway as he was going the opposite direction down Classen and did a u-turn at the light. I floored my 59 (with radials) and took off for the nearest side street we careened back and forth and finally killed the lights and pulled into a dark driveway and lost the cop who was in a Plymouth or Dodge interceptor.


I lost no hubcaps no valve stems no tie rod ends ball joints or torsion bars. The wheels never cracked warped or groaned, my roommate lost something but That is another story. Exner put 14's on the 57 to lower its profile and center of gravity. '59 saw the return of the 15" wheel for the Imperial. The radials stayed on the Imperial until it was hit by the Idiot in the '54 phord custom who broadsided me.

Thanks for listening

Marcus

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:48:23 -0700
From: Bob Smith <limo-guy@pe.net
Subject: IML: Tire differences

at 10:33 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

>the one thing we both noticed was an annoying thump-thump. No, the tires were not flat!! The restorer said it was because the car sat for such long stretches at a time the bias ply tires developed flat spots that might go away with some miles on them. Indeed, after driving it for about ten miles, the noise and sensation went away or I got used to it, I don't recall.

[It wasn't only because tires were bias ply--this happened with nylon corded tires and was common when cold, not just when they sat. If they sat for any length of time, it made the situation even worse. Rayon corded tires didn't have this problem, hot or cold.]

Limo Bob
http://www.pe.net/~goeditor/limo1.html

From: Watchfatha@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:22:00 EDT
Subject: IML: Handling on Radials

In a message dated 4/21/99 11:55:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, falbach@rcn.com
writes:

<< not sure if it would make enough of a difference to risk the "rough ride" that everyone's been talking about with radials and the other

There is no "rough ride". Radial ply tires are in fact more flexible at the sidewall than bias ply tires. If you are committed to attending shows, scoring points and trailering your car to them as a pure collector, go for the originality of bias ply. If not, don't listen to anyone who tells you there are severe trade-offs to radials. The trade-offs are so slight, in my humble but very high mileage opinion, as to be more than offset by the advantages of newer technology, smoother ride and safety that comes with a good set of radials. The difference in handling is astounding and you can buy a nice set of Michelins ( there is no other tire) 235 75 R 15 for about $ 95 each.
Norm

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:07:34 -0400
Subject: Re: IML: Imperial radials
From: David R Gimp <gimpineer@juno.com

Dayton is an old American tire company, in Dayton Ohio, I believe, and has been producing great quality tires for many years. In the 60's and 70's our company fleet cars (about 5000 cars) used nothing but Daytons. These were all bias ply. I have no experience with their radials.

Rolling along, 4-toes

From: chrycordoba@mindspring.com
Subject: IML: Imperial radials
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:36:56 -0400

Having listened to the varying opinions of the group, and doing some pricing from some vendors, I've decided to back-pedal on my earlier intention to put bias plys on my '59 Crown. A company in South Carolina called Diamond Back Classics has 235/75R15 tires manufactured by Dayton for $126 each, far less than Coker's Goodrich Silverstone Radials at $179 each. Both of these have 2-3/4" to 3" wide whitewalls. I would prefer a Michelin, and certainly at $95 each, but appearance is as important as everything else. The car now has roughly 1" wide whites, and it looks, well, underdressed. Coker lists the Michelin at substantially more than $95, and indicates the whitewall is only 1".

Does Michelin make a wide whitewall radial, because I haven't found anyone around northern Virginia who has anything wider? I've never heard of Dayton, but the Diamond Back guy said they'd been in business since 1915. Has anyone in the group heard of Dayton, and know of the quality of their tires?

Neal Herman
1959 Imperial Crown Southampton
1983 Chrysler Cordoba

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:26:34 -0400
From: Terry Fallstich <falbach@rcn.com
Subject: Re: IML: Handling on Radials

Watchfatha@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/21/99 11:55:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, falbach@rcn.com writes:

 << not sure if it would make enough of a difference to risk the "rough ride" that everyone's been talking about with radials and the other

There is no "rough ride"....

Norm:

I understand the whole radial deal. I never trailer my car to shows, and points are really no concern to me, however originality is... I don't think that appearance-wise, radials are a lot different from bias, are they? But what about the rumors that the rims are not made for radial tires? Is it true that certain internal mechanisms will deteriorate quicker with radials than with the suggested bias tires? I think it's all going to boil down to the flip of a coin. Maybe I'll get the front end checked out to see if that's part of the problem, too... I really need to replace the relay and get the wipers working before I even think about tires, though. I'll be going to a huge car flea market in Carlisle, PA this weekend, and I guess I'll do some research there...

Kristen
57 Crown Imperial

Dear Neal,

I would look into these tires from Diamond Back a little closer. Another Dayton dealer is:

http://www.altonstire.com/tires.htm

I would contact this dealer and ask if he can order wide whites from Dayton. If he tells you Dayton doesn't make them, then Diamond Back is possibly offering you a custom "shaved" tire.

At Barrett Jackson I saw a tire being shaved. This is where a whitewall tire is put on a lathe-like device and the thin layer of black rubber is shaved off revealing the white below. In this manner 1" whitewalls can become 3" whitewalls. If that is what Diamond Back is doing, I would think long and hard. Putting aside the resulting texture of the shaved portion of the whitewall, I'm not sure I would want a shaved tire on a 5000 lb. car. And regardless of what Diamond Back tells you, I would contact the Dayton factory directly to verify they are manufacturing wide white radials before I purchased them. And if they ARE making these tires, they should be available from other dealers. Pays to shop.

But when all is said and done I would call Coker and buy the correct 8:20x15 bias plys. They are even a few $$$ cheaper than the Daytons. My 2 cents.

Chris H.

60 NY T&C (with correct 9:00x14 wide whites)
64 Crown Sedan (with very soft riding General radials)
66 Convertible (with a good set of Michelins that mask a certain vagueness in the original steering linkage)
66 LeBaron (with Firestone FT70 radials and a totally rebuilt front end for very precise handling.)

(They are apparently a subsidiary of Bridgestone/Firestone.)

-- chrycordoba@mindspring.com wrote:

>Having listened to the varying opinions of the group, and doing some pricing from some vendors, I've decided to back-pedal on my earlier intention to put bias plys on my '59 Crown. A company in South Carolina called Diamond Back Classics has 235/75R15 tires manufactured by Dayton for $126 each, far less than Coker's Goodrich Silverstone Radials at $179 each. Both of these have 2-3/4" to 3" wide whitewalls. I would prefer a Michelin, and certainly at $95 each, but appearance is as important as everything else. The car now has roughly 1" wide whites, and it looks, well, underdressed. Coker lists the Michelin at substantially more than $95, and indicates the whitewall is only 1". Does Michelin make a wide whitewall radial, because I haven't found anyone around northern Virginia who has anything wider? I've never heard of Dayton, but the Diamond Back guy said they'd been in business since 1915. Has anyone in the group heard of Dayton, and know of the quality of their tires?

Neal Herman
1959 Imperial Crown Southampton
1983 Chrysler Cordoba

From: DGheen@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:49:20 EDT
Subject: Re: IML: Imperial radials

I had Dayton tires on a 58 Chevy I owned. This was in 1966 so I don't have any recent experience with them. They were bias ply tires then and were good tires at that time. I assume that the tires you are talking about are made by the Dayton Tire and Rubber Co. in Dayton, Ohio

From: Watchfatha@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:05:35 EDT
Subject: Re: IML: Handling on Radials

In a message dated 4/21/99 6:40:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, falbach@rcn.com
writes:

<< But what about the rumors that the rims are not made for radial tires? Is it true that certain internal mechanisms will deteriorate quicker with radials than with the suggested bias tires?

I have driven my 64 Imperial convert from its original 41,000 miles to its current 60,000 miles over the past 10 years on radial tires with no ill effects whatsoever. No rim breaks, no parts breaks. Not even any flats. Just good handling and a glass smooth ride.

As for originality, it has been my observation that most people, even so-called knowledgeable ones, do not have any correct idea what whitewall sizes should be to accurately depict the car as it truly was. So, do what you believe will make you happy.
Norm

From: Imp67cc64@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:30:12 EDT

In a message dated 4/22/99 12:27:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Watchfatha@aol.com writes:

<< As for originality, it has been my observation that most people , even so-called knowledgeable ones, do not have any correct idea what whitewall sizes should be to accurately depict the car as it truly was. So, do what you believe will make you happy.

Norm,

I agree with you as far as mid-60'sand later vehicles, but when it comes to a 50's and very early 60's vehicle or earlier, it usually comes down the extra work of getting correct tires and having them installed or take what the tire store wants to sell you. It doesn't a "rocket scientist" to know that 1/2" whitewall radials are not correct on a 50's vintage vehicle.

John

From: "Rob Shapiro" <shapiro@interport.net
Subject: Re: IML: Handling on Radials
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:09:41 -0400

I don't think that appearance-wise, radials are a lot different from bias, are they?

Yes, they are. The original Bias-ply tires have a much higher, stiffer profile than the radials. The radials are more rounded, making a flatter, less "formal" appearance, and much more flexible.

But what about the rumors that the rims are not made for radial tires? Is it true that certain internal mechanisms will deteriorate quicker with radials than with the suggested bias tires?

Big load of hog-wash. Get a set of radials if you have any intention of driving the car regularly. Dick Benjamin suggested the following to me, and it's good advice -- for touring, get a set of Michelin radials. If you're going to show the car, get an extra set of rims and mount the correct bias-ply tires. Interchange them when you need to.

Maybe I'll get the front end checked out to see if that's part of the problem, too...

DEFINITELY. Get the whole suspension looked over, rear too. My '60 had shot springs in back, and needed all new shocks, plus new tires. Now that everything has been replaced, the handling is incredible, and that's without a new front end, which I'll probably do next. Take care of the car and it'll take care of you.

Case in point, took that car out for it's first long distance trip last weekend. Took the Taconic highway, which is a very narrow-laned, old road that winds through the Catskill mountains from New York City into Albany and points upstate. It was Friday night and it was raining. Huge puddles. The car stayed right where it was supposed to, even though the conditions were hydroplane-ulous. At one point the car actually began to glide across some water in a deep turn -- the new Michelins held the road perfectly, and I never lost control of the car, even though I could feel the glide. It was both remarkable and a relief -- I had two kids in the car plus my wife and her best friend.

Get radials for driving, and get the entire suspension checked out.

Rob
'60 Crown Southampton
Brooklyn, New York

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:12:51 -0700
From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: IML: Re: Whitewall size

Norm, John, etc.

There's plenty of good reasons on both sides of the radial/bias debate,  but if you want to be close to "100% original", at least check out the factory photos in the books:

"Imperial 1955-1963 Photo Archive", P.A. Letourneau, Iconographix Photo Archive Series, 1994

"Imperial 1964-1968 Photo Archive", P.A. Letourneau, Iconographix Photo Archive Series, 1994

My '66 will never have the triple-whitewall optional tire correct for this year and will probably never be in a show where it matters that much, so I'll stick with radials.

Bob

 << As for originality, it has been my observation that most people, even so-called knowledgeable ones, do not have any correct idea what whitewall sizes should be to accurately depict the car as it truly was. So, do what you believe will make you happy.

 Norm,

I agree with you as far as mid-60's and later vehicles, but when it comes to a 50's and very early 60's vehicle or earlier, it usually comes down the extra work of getting correct tires and having them installed or take what the tire store wants to sell you. It doesn't a "rocket scientist" to know that 1/2" whitewall radials are not correct on a 50's vintage vehicle.

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:11:21 +0100
From: Philippe COURANT <accf_clb@club-internet.fr
Subject: Re: IML: Imperial radials

I'm French and I know well the Michelin tires. They make a lot of tires for antique cars but only bias wide whitewall like 8.20 x 15 or 9.00 x 14. The only radials they sell has a 1" wide red or white. Correct for car after 60 but not for the '50s... And price is very high, even in France! I don't know if they'll send catalog but they have a web site: www.michelin.com. I've the address and fax of the collector tires service (it was in 1994): MICHELIN, service SN-PR, 38 rue H. Barbusse, 63000 CLERMONT-FERRAND (France). Fax: (33) 473 302 688.

hilippe COURANT
Imperial 57 Crown convertible
Buick 58 Roadmaster sedan

American Car Club de France :
visit our site : http://www.accf.com

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:09:42 -0400
From: Terry Fallstich <falbach@rcn.com
Subject: Re: IML: One final question on tires:

Having soaked up all of the information given about radial v. bias tires, I still have one question.... what is best for my situation? Basically, I only drive my car to shows, the farthest being about 2 hrs. away, the shows are usually about every week or two. I probably put about 300 miles a year on the car, and I don't drive it over like 60 or 65 on highways, and NEVER in the rain. Will radials really make a difference? Is it worth losing the correct look of bias tires?

Kristen
57 Crown Imperial

From: RonSmithAZ@aol.com
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:40:56 EDT
Subject: Re: IML: One final question on tires: Final input....

If you use the bias type tires and like them, Great !

Just remember to move the car periodically to avoid the annoying flat spot pounding when you go down the road..............Bias belted tires will take a "set" if the weight is kept in one spot for any length of time.


Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:18:45 +0100
From: Mark <tomswift@bellsouth.net

Subject: Re: IML: One final question on tires:

Terry,

I have to laugh. After all this debate and you still aren't convinced either way?

This is one you will just have to decide for yourself. I know what some other folks will say: radials. And probably that is the best choice, overall. But there is nothing wrong with putting bias belted tires on your car, if that's what you want. It just comes down to what you value most: the correct look or the ride. And no one can make that choice for you.

But neither choice will be "wrong," as long as you get the right size, etc., and no one should criticize you for your choice. It's YOUR CAR, so do what pleases you!

Mark M

Terry Fallstich wrote:

Having soaked up all of the information given about radial v. bias tires, I still have one question.... what is best for my situation? Basically, I only drive my car to shows, the farthest being about 2 hrs. away, the shows are usually about every week or two. I probably put about 300 miles a year on the car, and I don't drive it over like 60 or 65 on highways, and NEVER in the rain. Will radials really make a difference? Is it worth losing the correct look of bias tires?

Kristen
57 Crown Imperial

From: Terry Fallstich <falbach@rcn.com
Subject: Re: IML: One final question on tires:

Imp67cc64@aol.com wrote:

Kristen,
I seem to be in the minority on the radial/ bias ply question, but for what it is worth, I would not think of putting radials on a 57, especially in your situation. If both car and tires are in very good condition, the bias plys do very nicely and give the correct look, both in the show and on the road.

John

Well, if you're in the minority, then so am I... I think I'm leaning toward bias. Maybe if I drove it in more severe weather, or on a more regular basis, it would be different. But bias seems like the thing to do.

Kristen
57 Crown Imperial

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:32:37 -0700
Subject: Re: IML: One final question on tires:
From: Bill R Goodall <javahedz@juno.com

All the advice on DRIVING radials and maybe showing correct bias is good. I wouldn't drive around the block on a set of new bias if I had access to a decent set of used Michelins. Of course, a set of new ones is the best solution and believe me, you'll not be sorry. I first got my father convinced on radials for his 66NY back in about 72..He had to go over the Cascade Mts the next am early, and as it happened there was a fresh dump of snow...he was amazed at the traction as well as quietness...less road noise transmitted thru unibody and unbelievable cornering over what he already thought was great. I agree with whoever it was that said about Michelins 'is there any other tire?'

My 67 Crown Cpe doesn't have 'em yet, but she runs decent radials now as is. I just snuck her out a couple weeks ago to blow out the cobwebs (expired tags & no brake lights...tsk-tsk on me!). We are on a delightfully windy country road.

On the only little straightaway we briefly saw 80...my 9 yr old daughter saw it too and was happy to announce what papa had done. But she never jettisoned a cover, just smooth and solid like the good girl she is.

I have to go to Seattle tomorrow and am going by "Mr. Imperial's " place in N Seattle. I got his last NOS idler arm last winter and need to get him the old one to send away for rebuild of the center-link end. I haven't seen him mentioned here, so I will see if he knows about the IML. I can't imagine that he wouldn't. He really has a museum and parts depot of a place, I'll tell you!

One little thing of special note on my 67: The original quad piston front calipers have been replaced with the newer style such as on the 69-70's type single piston. I don't know as yet what required changing as far as the steering knuckles or steering arms, but a swap from a parts car of the 69 & up series is a great solution to the old brake caliper problems...and man do they work!!! Whew, was that a long winded comment or what.
Bill&Tina
67 Cr Cpe
Western Wa

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:09:42 -0400 Terry Fallstich <falbach@rcn.com
writes:
Having soaked up all of the information given about radial v. bias tires, I still have one question.... what is best for my situation? Basically, I only drive my car to shows, the farthest being about 2 hrs. away, the shows are usually about every week or two. I probably put about 300 miles a year on the car, and I don't drive it over like 60 or 65 on highways, and NEVER in the rain. Will radials really make a difference? Is it worth losing the correct look of bias tires?

Kristen
57 Crown Imperial


From - Fri Apr 23 08:59:11 1999

From: Imp67cc64@aol.com

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:45:39 EDT
Subject: Re: IML: One final question on tires:

Kristen,

I seem to be in the minority on the radial/ bias ply question, but for what it is worth, I would not think of putting radials on a 57, especially in your situation. If both car and tires are in very good condition, the bias plys do very nicely and give the correct look, both in the show and on the road.

John

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 06:35:44 -0700
From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net
Subject: IML: Tire Detailing - Meguiar's Endurance

Hi to all -

>If y'all are like me, you're disappointed with the long term results of "Armor All" type tire detailing products. It looks greasy when you put it on, and turns brown in a few days. I was reading a magazine recently with a story about a new Meguiar's product called Endurance that they claim is a "water resistant tire protectant" and "lasts for weeks, not days and prevents tires from turning brown." Meguiar's is sending out free samples. I ordered a sample but haven't gotten it yet so I can't vouch for their claims, but I wanted to pass along the number: (800) 347-5700. They'll ask where you heard about the product - I saw the story in "Cars and Parts" magazine.

After cleaning my tires with Castrol Super Clean, I used my free sample of this stuff. It's a gel and sure looks good one day later!

Bob

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:02:03 -0700
From: "Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@ez2.net
Subject: IML: Tire Questions and answers, really long and opinionated read

No problem, Rob. Most of these discussions have stirred up some controversy, so ;you have to be aware that what I spout off with is really just my opinion, and others on the list have lots of experience too.

I have tried various tires over the years and in my college days, I earned my keep at a recap plant sorting, evaluating and processing (buffing off the remaining tread) on used tire casings for eventual recap.

Also as you may know, I have too many collector cars; I keep fresh tires on the ones I use for touring, currently that part of my fleet is down to 12. When I can justify putting on Michelins, that is what I prefer.

Unfortunately, there are no tires made by Michelin that will really look right on your 60. I am not sure, as I never had a Chrysler product in that era, but other cars I have had from the 59-61 period had whitewall widths of around 2 inches, give or take a 1/2 inch or so, and I don't know of any manufacturer making correct looking tires in a radial. For one thing, the original bias ply tires have a different shape, with a flat tread, and a fairly sharp edge defining the sidewall, while radials have pretty close to a round cross-section. So, your decision really boils down to:

1. are you going to have tires that look right (bias ply in the original size, which was probably something like 820X15 or even 915X15, check your owner's manual or service manual for the correct original size) which you can buy from Coker, Lucas, or probably other vendors (who will know what is correct for your car, including the correct whitewall width), or

2. If you are going to use the car for touring, and you are not going to insist on absolutely correct appearance, you can put on radials of the closest available size. Then, within radials, you have to chose between high quality (which for my money means Michelin), or wide white radial, which you can buy from Coker also, but do not think of these as high quality tires. Even if you can buy the correct whitewall width in a radial, it will still not look exactly right, because of the fundamental shape difference.

On the cars I show, I have a set of correct wide whites (I prefer the Firestone brand, but there are others, and I buy them from Lucas), and on the cars I use on tours, I have a set of Michelins. For my mid 50's cars, where the whitewall width is around 3 1/2 inches to 4 inches, I have two sets of wheels, and I mount the wide whites for show, and the Michelins for long distance touring. Fortunately, all my Packards use the same wheel size, so I only need one set of really nice show tires unless I am showing more than one car at a time. My Imperials are 67, 68, 81, and 82, so I can run the Michelins on them all the time, the whitewall width is correct for the later cars, and a little narrow for the 67-8 cars, but close enough. But if I had a 60, I guess I would go the two sets of wheels route if I were going for authenticity but I still wanted to tour with the car. Certainly Radials, especially good radials, make a world of difference in driving the car.

Size numbering is really easy. The first number "235" is the width of the tire at the widest point, in millimeters. The second number "75" is the height of the tire from the rim to the road, expressed as a percentage of the width. The last number "15" is the rim diameter at the tire bead.

Prior to this system of nomenclature, there was a period where letters were used for the width measurement, and roughly, for Imperials, "H" corresponds to about "225" in the newer system, "L" to "235". So an L78-15, which might be a size on the current crop of bias ply wide whites from Dunlop (also called Remington, LeMans, Cooper, and others names from specialty stores) would be pretty close to a 235B75 -15 where the B signifies Bias ply. Of course, it would be a little taller for the same width (78 instead of 75). The original tire on your 60 (if my assumption is correct and it is an 820X15) would be 8.2 inches wide (they used to use inches, not millimeters for the width) and 88% as high as the width (that is what most all tires were in those days) and of course the same 15 inch rim. So the original tire, if this assumption is correct would be 8.2 inches wide, 7 1/4 inches from rim to road, on a 15 inch wheel, placing the center point of the wheel at 14 3/4 inches from the road with a properly inflated tire. There is very little squashing down on a bias ply if it is correctly inflated, the sidewalls were not designed to belly out like the modern radials do.

The Letter series wide white from Remington in the same load carrying range would be an L78 15, and it would be 9.6 inches wide (there are 24.5 millimeters per inch), and roughly the same height . You can see that this tire will look really wide on your car compared to the original.

The modern size radial, 235R75 - 15, will be about the same width, but the car will sit noticeably closer to the road due to the shape of a radial, and this will make it appear wider still. Some have gone to 70 series tires for instance 235R70 - 15, thinking this looks more modern, and I suppose they are right if that is what they want, but this tire is only 6 3/4 from rim to road before it is squashed down by the weight of the car (another 3/4 inch at least) so you have the center of the wheel only 13 1/2 inches from the pavement, a full 1 1/4 lower, and a much wider tire. This looks all wrong to my eyes on a car older than about 1970, but that is just a matter of taste.

I'm going to post this to the whole list, along with part of your question, because there may be others having the same difficulty getting to that part of the web page. I know there will be some who disagree with my opinion about what looks right, but I hope the data about sizes is helpful anyway.

Dick Benjamin

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Shapiro <shapiro@interport.net
To: Bondotmec <bondotmec@dte.net
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 2:58 PM
Subject: More Tire Questions ...

Hi Dick --

Allow me to pick from your mental database for a moment ...

I'm sure that, as the 1960 Imperial that I am buying and taking possession of this week has not been regularly driven for a couple of years, I will need to replace the tires. Also, I know that the original bias-ply spare is quietly waiting in the absolutely IMMACULATE trunk, where do I find more information about the tire size intended for the wheels? Should I be looking for 235/75 15's?

what exactly do those numbers refer to?

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:20:26 -0700
From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net

Subject: Re: IML: Tire Questions and answers

Dick -

No problem, Rob. Most of these discussions have stirred up some controversy, so you have to be aware that what I spout off with is really just my opinion, and others on the list have lots of experience too.

Thanks for the tips. Previous email on tires is posted at:

http://teamchicago.com/imperial/imptires.htm

It's just a chronological set of messages, so enter at your own risk!

Bob

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:27:54 +0100
From: Philippe COURANT <accf_clb@club-internet.fr
Subject: Re: IML: Tire Questions and answers, really long and opinionated read from Mr. Word Factory

Just some info about Michelin tires: they don't make wide white radials (I wonder why ! i've sent them a mail about this 4 days ago and I will inform the list if I'll get info), only 1" red line radials (185 R 15). They make wide white bias tires and also a lot of tires for pre 40 cars : you'll see your products in the web site:
http://www.michelin.com/vintagetyres

--
Philippe COURANT
Imperial 57 Crown convertible
Buick 58 Roadmaster sedan

American Car Club de France: visit our site:
http://www.accf.com

From: Imperial67@aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 13:23:32 EDT
Subject: IML: Re: Wide Whitewalls on NYBs

Jon the NYBeing wrote:

For those of you who think that post-fin cars look best with out WIDE white walls, there is a picture of a '78 New Yorker Brougham on my website with wide whites.

What Chrysler called "wider whitewalls" were an option on the New Yorker Brougham from the factory in 1977 and 1978. They were Firestone 500s, I believe, with 1-5/8" whitewall (what is shown on Jon's website) and came only in size JR78-15. They are perfectly correct (and stunning) on this era car.

This tire was also part of the rare "Salon Package" offered on 1978 NYB 4-door hardtops, along with aluminum-fascia road wheels, which were a unique wheel treatment to this package. (These were not the road wheels and they are not the deep-dish all-aluminum wheel offered on same-year Cordobas and LeBarons. They are a steel wheel with an finned cast-aluminum insert painted metallic silver-gray and exposed lugs.)

Firestone still (on occasion) manufactures a comparable 235/75 R15 wider-whitewall "FR721" model of tire, with the same 1-5/8" stripe. I've got them on my '67 and they look great (IMHO) on Imps and big Chryslers from 1962 all the way through the 1970s. It would be a good idea for all of us to write, call or e-mail Firestone to ask them to keep making this tire, since production seems rather sporadic. And I'm gonna need another set real soon!

- Chris H

From: "Barbara K. Seidl" <gennabet@mitec.net
Subject: IML: Re: White wall cleaning
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:32:16 -0500

Hi All,

Actually, I'd recommend against a steel wool pad, because little bits of steel will get imbedded in your whitewall and rust, causing an overall brown tinge.

My husband has always used and swears by SOS (doesn't like Brillo:)). He has used Wesleys and felt it dried out the sidewalls, so he went back to the SOS.

Barbara
'68 LeBaron

From - Sun May 23 16:12:39 1999
Return-Path: owner-mailing-list@imperialclub.com

From: mopowerd@flash.net

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 14:32:38 +0000

Subject: Re: IML: Whitewall cleaner

>Actually, I'd recommend against a steel wool pad, because little bits of steel will get imbedded in your whitewall and rust, causing an overall brown tinge.

I keep hearing this from people, and although it sounds true in theory, I've never, ever, had it happen to me.

In fact, whitewalls are listed as a use for SOS on the box. I also use #0000 steel wool for chrome, stainless and glass. Never had any ill effects. Obviously, I'm very thorough about washing off any "particles". SOS is also good for really trashed out chrome (never on anything in good shape).

By the same token, any type of plastic pad will scratch chrome, glass, stainless. That's why I don't use them.

But on whitewalls, I suppose it's six of one, half-dozen of another.

Carmine F.

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:35:12 -0500
From: Frank Zendell <zinko@iquest.net
Subject: IML: Whitewall cleaner

Hello List,

>Is there a better product to clean white walls that Wesley Bleche-White?

I have always used it, but noticed at a car show yesterday that my whites are a bit ivory compared to the WHITE whites all around me. Now actually, since my car is Persian White and does lean toward ivory, it looks good. But I asked several people at the show, and they use the same product. One explanation was that mine being the narrow white, next to cars with wide white, may create this illusion.

Any comments out there?

Frank

From: mopowerd@flash.net
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:48:58 +0000
Subject: Re: IML: Whitewall cleaner

>Is there a better product to clean white walls that Wesley Bleche-Wite?

If there is, I haven't found it. I like Westley's cause it's cheap, it works, and because it looks like it's made by a little Mom & Pop petro-chemical company.

I also liked that up until a year or so, it had a very 70s looking car on the label, complete with sexy women cleaning whitewalls. How very un-PC. Now she looks older, and appears to be cleaning some modern, Taurus-like blob.

...since my car is Persian White and does lean toward ivory, it looks good.

Sometimes whitewalls just get old. Try some Comet cleanser on a scrub brush, or maybe an SOS pad.

Carmine F.

From: "mike & linda sutton" <mikanlin@ewa.net

Subject: Re: IML: Whitewall cleaner - brass wool too
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:23:24 -0700

hi all,

I generally use bleche white too, as I recall we use brass wool to avoid the steel bits coming off and the over all brownish problem that was mentioned, or aluminum wool if we can find it. My wife's dad is an old Firestone guy and he told me that all whitewalls are actually the base rubber showing thru that isn't made black in the manufacturing process, but I don't remember the details.

I do know I have seen raised white letter tires that have been scuffed and the sidewall becomes sort of a white band of rubber - so maybe its true. I'll ask about the painting of whitewalls, don't recall hearing of anything. Eastwood perhaps?

thanks,

mike
62 crown

From: "Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@ez2.net
Subject: IML: Re: Whitewall cleaner
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:23:37 -0700

I have noticed this too. Some brands of wide whites have much whiter rubber. I have a set of Sears wide whites on one car, they always look a little dingy no matter how hard I scrub. I have improved them some by using lacquer thinner on them, but I am not sure this doesn't damage the rubber - does anyone know?

Dick Benjamin

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Zendell <zinko@iquest.net
Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 1:32 PM
Subject: IML: Whitewall cleaner

Hello List,

Is there a better product to clean white walls that Wesley Bleche-Wite?

I have always used it, but noticed at a car show yesterday that my whites are a bit ivory compared to the WHITE whites all around me. Now actually, since my car is Persian White and does lean toward ivory, it looks good. But I asked several people at the show, and they use the same product. One explanation was that mine being the narrow white, next to cars with wide white, may create this illusion.

Any comments out there?

Frank

Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 09:16:15 -0500
From: "Dwight M. Cannon" <dwightc@geocities.com

If you were to cut a tire in half, you would see in the cross-section that the whitewall is a laid-in piece of rubber; the reason you see the white showing through on a scuff is probably because you have gone through the black layer and exposed the white insert...

mike & linda sutton wrote:

 hi all,

I generally use Bleche White too, as I recall we use brass wool to avoid the steel bits coming off and the overall brownish problem that was mentioned, or aluminum wool if we can find it. My wife's dad is an old firestone guy and he told me that all whitewalls are actually the base rubber showing thru that isn't made black in the manufacturing process, but I don't remember the details.

I do know I have seen raised white letter tires that have been scuffed and the sidewall becomes sort of a white band of rubber - so maybe its true. I'll ask about the painting of whitewalls, don't recall hearing of anything. Eastwood perhaps?

 thanks,

 mike
 62 crown

From: "Mark Alexander" <moa@uvic.ca
Subject: Re: IML: Whitewall cleaner
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:42:02 -0700

The best product I have found to clean whitewalls is Easy Off oven cleaner. Spray on your whitewalls, let stand for 15-20 seconds and wipe off with a rag. I've been using this for years and may whitewalls are like new. After applying oven cleaner I rinse the tire, dry and spray with Armour All Extreme Tire Shine. Try it, your tires will look awesome.

Carmine & others -

>Is there a better product to clean white walls that Wesley Bleche-White?

I just started using Castrol Super Clean on my whitewalls. It was pretty good, maybe not as powerful as Wesley's, but also not as harsh. One less chemical to buy.

If your whitewalls are slightly off-white, I'd guess the rubber or original white color is yellowing and maybe cannot be restored. I've read that whitewalls can be re-touched wil some types of white paints - anyone know?

 Bob

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:38:01 -0700

As I recall, no, they are not the same. The Imperial is the only wheel with the (I believe) 5" pattern.

I believe that GM uses a 5-on-5 pattern, (at least on trucks) which of course opens up a world of aftermarket possibilities.

My personal favorite is using some cheapo wagon wheels and stock hubcaps. Get them at Pep-Boys, Discount Tire, etc. These rims are usually around $25-$30 bucks each w/o centers (which you won't need). No more junkyard scrounging for rusty rims.

Advantages...

Lighter weight, Improved brake cooling, Wider widths.

I've personally run 8" rims on my '77 NYB. With these I used 235/70R15 tires. Clearance with the fender skirts was tight, but never a problem. The 8" width was OEM on GM RWD cop-cars and is the optimum size for these tires. I currently run the same rims on my '72 Polara.

Trust me purists, these yield a real gain in handling over the stock 5.5"-6.5" rims. Putting a radial's tread FLAT on the ground is essential. Larger modern tires tend to become "bowed" on yesterday's rims.

As far as "strength" concerns go, there is a gov't standard for aftermarket rims. In today's lawyer-happy society, do you really think they'd be selling these rims to guys with 6,000 lb 4x4 Suburbans if they weren't safe?

>I think we ended up with a f*rd pickup wheel... worked...

I wouldn't recommend this unless it's a real emergency. The Ford rim is slightly smaller than a Mopar rim at the center. I will "fit" but if you leave it on for any length of time you may have a hell of a time getting it off. I once had a junker '71 Polara with one Ford rim. I had to beat that baby off with a long pipe.

Right now I'm running 16x7" Ford cop-car rims on my '89 5th Ave, but I used a smaller carbide bit to enlarge the center hole slightly. (They center themselves with the lugs, not the center hole).

Carmine F.

Subject: RE: IML:bolt pattern: Imperial Wheel?
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:32:51 +0200

I tried successfully the 1976 Scout 2 rims To fix the hubcap You have to weld some points on the rims.
Center balance whole is o.k.
Dietmar
EUR/Germany
60 Imperial Crown fds
vin #9204113778
http://www.movit.de/htm/imperial.htm

-----Original Message-----

On Behalf Of Jack R.
Lindholm
Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 3:22 AM

Subject: Re: IML:bolt pattern: Imperial Wheel?


Hey Guys,

As I recall, no, they are not the same. The Imperial is the only wheel with the (I believe) 5" pattern.

I remember when, the before mentioned 73 Imperial, was mine for college a couple years (wasn't I lucky?!) the spare tire was somehow, ahem, misplaced (kids...) Had a hell of a time getting a replacement wheel. No other Mopar from NY'er on down would work. And nothing made after '73 would fit either. I think we ended up with a f*rd pickup wheel... worked... Don't count on a wrecking yard unless the wheel is specifically from an 73 or earlier car...

good luck
Manhattan Jack
81 Imperial

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:09:12 -0600
From: "Brauer, Mark" <mark.brauer@lmco.com

Hey Jack, was that a '73, or a '72?

When I had my '72 coupe, I needed to get a couple of wheels ('cause mine came with MAGS on the back!), and the Hollander Interchange book listed '73s and up as different from the '72s and before (to '67, I think....). Same story with the front brake rotors (if non-SureBrake). Even though '73 was still a Fuselage-era, it indicated that they'd changed 'em to use the same wheels as MoPar C-bodies (New Yorker, Newport, Polara, Monaco, Fury).

Seems to me that '73 was the year that Chrysler Corp. changed the braking systems on many of their lines, consolidating and lowering costs. (No more 4-piston calipers for A-bodies, for instance.) I think this reached all the way up to Imperial, too.

'Course, that old Hollander could've been wrong....

Mark
'52 Chrysler Imperial 2-door hardtop
'63 Imperial Crown 4-door hardtop

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack R. Lindholm [SMTP:jrl-black@rocketmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: IML:bolt pattern: Imperial Wheel?

Hey Guys,

As I recall, no, they are not the same. The Imperial is the only wheel with the (I believe) 5" pattern. I remember when, the before mentioned 73 Imperial, was mine for college a couple years (wasn't I lucky?!) the spare tire was somehow, ahem, misplaced (kids...) Had a hell of a time getting a replacement wheel. No other Mopar from NY'er on down would work. And nothing made after '73 would fit either. I think we ended up with a f*rd pickup wheel... worked..; Don't count on a wrecking yard unless the wheel is specifically from a '73 or earlier car..

good luck
Manhattan Jack
81 Imperial

From - Fri Jun 25 13:55:27 1999

Hey Mark,

Yep, that was a '73 with surebrake. No other newer C-body wheels would fit. I wish I had the exact measurements, sorry. I believe you measure bolt circles from the center of one hole, to the far edge of the next one. I'll try to find a drawing I've seen in a catalog somewhere...

M J
81 Imp

From - Fri Jun 25 10:29:01 1999

In a message dated 99-06-25 02:39:23 EDT, you write:

What is the bolt pattern for a 73 Imperial. Will someone measure the center point between two wheel studs. It will be something around 3 inches. My 57 is 5 1/2 inch bolt pattern (called 5.5 on 5). 5.5 is the DIAMETER of the bolt pattern. I have a gauge that will tell me the pattern from the distance between two studs.

Full size GMs are 5x5, Fords and Chebbys are 4.5 or 4.75 on 5. Four bolt wheels are similar but then, if it only has 4 bolts, it should be considered a spare car, not a real automobile.

I will be flying to Denver on July 4 to hopefully buy Mark McCue's 73 Imperial and want to get an extra spare. This is the reason I need to know the answer to this question.

Thanks Kerry.
 
As I recall, no, they are not the same. The Imperial is the only wheel with the (I believe) 5" pattern.

I believe that GM uses a 5-on-5 pattern, (at least on trucks) which of course opens up a world of aftermarket possibilities.

From - Fri Jun 25 15:48:39 1999

Manhattan Jack wrote:

Hey Mark,

Yep, that was a '73 with surebrake. No other newer C-body wheels would fit. I wish I had the exact measurements, sorry.

AAHH, well..., SureBrake's a whole 'nother story....

I believe for what turned out to be SureBrake's final year ('73) they used (to use up?) the same rotors, drums and, therefore, wheels from the previous years. Imperials not so equipped got the same stuff as the rest o' the C-bodies.

The reason I keep going back to that brake change-over in '73 in this wheel bolt pattern discussion is because when the rotors were consolidated across the corporation, the '73 Imperial got the smaller bolt pattern. Which means the wheels are not the same as were used in previous years.

Kerry, if you're coming out here to pick up a '73, and you want to make sure you have an extra spare, I think you're going to need one on a rim that'll fit a '69-72 NON-Imperial C-body (New Yorker, Polara, et al), or '73-up C-body/Imperial.

Perhaps Mr. McCue can check on this for you.... 'Cause, I could be wrong (yeah, it happens....).

Mark
'52 Chrysler Imperial 2-door hardtop
'63 Imperial Crown 4-door hardtop

From - Sun Jun 27 14:51:55 1999

Alright, a piggyback question...My 1967 does not have the original hubcaps, and I had a set of Cragar spoke rims laying around. Went through the hassle of finding left threaded mag shank lug nuts, and attempted to put the rim on the car. The back was fine...nice flat drums back there, but the front was a different story...Chrysler in its infinite wisdom made the front brake caliper a zillion inches off the disc. Now I am stuck with these god awful hubcaps (Chrysler disc brakes written on them) and cannot find any mag wheel that will fit on the car. None. Nada. zilch. Now I know I am going into dangerous territory when I say that I want wire rims on my car, but I do. And a set of four replacement hubcaps does not fit my budget.

So, does anyone know where I can find, or have a set of wire rims for sale?

Zeke

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 mopowerd@flash.net wrote:

 
>As I recall, no, they are not the same. The Imperial is the only  wheel with the (I believe) 5" pattern.

>I believe that GM uses a 5-on-5 pattern, (at least on trucks) which of course opens up a world of aftermarket possibilities.

My personal favorite is using some cheapo wagon wheels and stock hubcaps. Get them at Pep-Boys, Discount Tire, etc. These rims are usually around $25-$30 bucks each w/o centers (which you won't need). No more junkyard scrounging for rusty rims.

 Advantages...

Lighter weight, Improved brake cooling, Wider widths.

I've personally run 8" rims on my '77 NYB. With these I used 235/70R15 tires. Clearance with the fender skirts was tight, but never a problem. The 8" width was OEM on GM RWD cop-cars and is the optimum size for these tires. I currently run the same rims on my '72 Polara.

Trust me purists, these yield a real gain in handling over the stock 5.5"-6.5" rims. Putting a radial's tread FLAT on the ground is essential. Larger modern tires tend to become "bowed" on yesterday's rims.

As far as "strength" concerns go, there is a gov't standard for aftermarket rims. In today's lawyer-happy society, do you really think they'd be selling these rims to guys with 6,000 lb 4x4 Suburbans if they weren't safe?

I think we ended up with a f*rd  pickup wheel..... worked....

I wouldn't recommend this unless it's a real emergency. The Ford rim is  slightly smaller than a Mopar rim at the center. I will "fit" but if you leave it on for any length of time you may have a hell of a time getting it off. I once had a junker '71 Polara with one Ford rim. I had to beat that baby off with a long pipe.

Right now I'm running 16x7" Ford cop-car rims on my '89 5th Ave, but I used a smaller carbide bit to enlarge the center hole slightly. (They center themselves with the lugs, not the center hole).

 Carmine F.


Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:02:00 -0700
Subject: Re: IML: RE: White wall or true spoke ? here are the pictures to decide
From: sweet@mdimensions.com (Harold Sweet)

Dietmar...

Vogue tires are sold mainly at Cadillac dealers here in the states. They have a slightly wider white than the current day whitewall and a very narrow yellow accent band. They are very classy and quite expensive. I've coveted a set for years, but never made the investment. Tires can get ground up pretty fast on these cars when used as a daily driver, as mine is. ('70 Lebaron)

Harold Sweet
Media Dimensions
(619) 485-7425
FAX (619) 485-7239
sweet@mdimensions.com

----------
From: StadtApoAchern@t-online.de (Dietmar Frensemeyer)
Subject: RE: IML: RE: White wall or true spoke ? here are the pictures to decide
Date: Tue, Sep 7, 1999, 9:31 AM

>Well, of course the car is fabulous either way, but personally, the wide whites seem TOO wide on this car, and I'd vote for the spokes and a narrower white. The wide whites make the tires look too big and cartoon-like and  start to interfere with the lines of the car itself. I look at the car and all I see is TIRES. How about a nice set of Vogues?

I agree with every word of You - I tried also wide white ones on spoke - same effect: only tires.  the chrome of the spokes corresponds much better with rest of the car. The 61  hub cap is better designed for that.

But what are "Vogues" please ?
Dietmar
EUR/Germany
60 Imperial Crown fds


Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:24:33 -0700
From: Bob Schmitt <bsbrbank@pacbell.net

Harold & Dietmar -

>But what are "Vogues" please?

Vogue tires were discussed here a few months ago. The messages said these are now made "off-shore":

"I think Vogue went the way of Firestone and Goodrich and others who shipped their fabrication over to Asia and ruined their reputations. Boy did they ruin their reputations. The Vogues I've looked at are obviously inferior products, prone to cup wear even with front ends properly aligned. The fabricating gauge of the product is obviously less than the superior Remy line. You don't have to even touch them to observe the difference.

They look like they have tread from hell, but it's just an illusion since they leave half of it on the road and is not well-supported underneath. Around here there have been so many complaints about them and Yokohama, that it prompted a story in the Post's auto section, a consumer alert on one of the TV stations, and some outlets not carrying them any longer, Discount being one."

The consensus on the IML has been that Michelin makes a far superior tire. I've got a collection of the e-mails on tire at:

http://teamchicago.com/imperial/imptires.htm

or search the 30,000+ message archive:

http://www.imperialclub.com/archives/normal/

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:14:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Watchfatha@aol.com
Subject: IML: Tires for a 60

In a message dated 11/22/99 5:39:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bwsmith1@collins.rockwell.com writes:

<< You could probably be comfortable with 215/75R-15's. 205's would be too small, 225's may be too big.

This is one case where the numbers may lie. 225's are too small. Nothing under 235 will be adequate to handle the weight and handling requirements. Don't worry, they'll fit.
Norm

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:35:52 -0800
From: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@dte.net
Subject: IML: Tire Sizes

We have had these discussions on the IML many times, they are probably available in the archives. You will find discussions of rolling diameter (read "speedometer error"), ride height, wheel stress problems, white wall width, appearance of being "squashed", feel on the road, ride harshness, etc.

But most important, consider safety.

The bottom line for safety is to note the weight of your car, figure that maybe as much as 60% of that could be on the front wheels (yes, I know it's not that bad, but we're being conservative here), divide that by two and you will get a static load on your front wheels of perhaps 1500 pounds per wheel. Any tire you buy will have a load rating on the sidewall: compare that with the weight just calculated and make sure you have a safety factor, around 25 to 30 % is adequate. This means you need a tire which can carry almost 2000 pounds.

Dick Benjamin
bondotmec@ez2.net

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:14:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Watchfatha@aol.com
Subject: IML: Tires for a 60

In a message dated 11/22/99 5:39:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bwsmith1@collins.rockwell.com writes:

<< You could probably be comfortable with 215/75R-15's. 205's would be too small, 225's may be too big.

This is one case where the numbers may lie. 225's are too small. Nothing under 235 will be adequate to handle the weight and handling requirements. Don't worry, they'll fit.
Norm

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:35:52 -0800
From: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@dte.net
Subject: IML: Tire Sizes

We have had these discussions on the IML many times, they are probably available in the archives. You will find discussions of rolling diameter (read "speedometer error"), ride height, wheel stress problems, white wall width, appearance of being "squashed", feel on the road, ride harshness, etc.

But most important, consider safety.

The bottom line for safety is to note the weight of your car, figure that maybe as much as 60% of that could be on the front wheels (yes, I know it's not that bad, but we're being conservative here), divide that by two and you will get a static load on your front wheels of perhaps 1500 pounds per wheel. Any tire you buy will have a load rating on the sidewall: compare that with the weight just calculated and make sure you have a safety factor, around 25 to 30 % is adequate. This means you need a tire which can carry almost 2000 pounds.

Dick Benjamin
bondotmec@ez2.net

Subject: Re: Re: IML: Tire size (size matters)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:42:04 -0500 (EST)
From:Imperial67@aol.com

>> General makes a 255 70R 15 which looks much better than the 235.

When I bought my '67 in 1989 the original owner had somehow been talked into putting 255s on the car. They looked like tires from a truck or motor home... simply too large, and that much tread on a car designed for much narrower 9.15x15 bias-ply tires puts too much stress on the steering gear and overall suspension geometry.

I switched them to a more compatible 235/75R15 XL (Extra Load) Firestone 721 with an 1-5/8" whitewall soon after and have been happy with the ride, handling and performance since.

Chris H
67 Crown, 78 NYB Salon (both with the same tire mentioned above)

Subject: Re: IML: Tire size (size matters)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:36:14 EST
From:Watchfatha@aol.com

In a message dated 11/23/1999 9:24:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Imperial67@aol.com writes:

<< > General makes a 255 70R 15 which looks much better than the 235.
>>
As I am a stickler for perfect performance before perfect appearance, my question is: do the Firestone 721 tires balance perfectly so as to give a totally (tire) vibration free ride? I have used Michelins exclusively for this reason only but would like the added benefit of a wider whitewall provided the tires do not shake-at all and at any speed.

As for 255x70 15's I cannot imagine them being balanceable to zero shake as there is simply too much mass to compensate for and General has never been noted for its lack of runout or exceptional quality control. PLEASE correct me if my impressions are incorrect and they are balanceable and vibration free.

No-Shake Norm

Subject: IML: Tires
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:16:13 -0800
From: Mark Alexander <moa@uvic.ca>

Hello all, I need looking for new tires for my 63 four door. I had Yokohama 235 75R15 radial with a 1 3/8" whitewall for the past three years. An excellent tire, held up well and looked great, of course Yokohama no longer makes a wide white wall tire. I'm actually having trouble finding any manufacturer that have a whitewall of 1 3/8". So what does everyone use on their vehicles. I'd like to avoid going to a standard 1" whitewall. Please help!

Mark

Subject: Re: IML: Tires
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:40:20 -0500 (EST)
From:Imp67cc64@aol.com

In a message dated 11/23/99 10:57:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, moa@uvic.ca writes:

<< Hello all, I need looking for new tires for my 63 four door. I had Yokohama 235 75R15 radial with a 1 3/8" whitewall for the past three years...
>>

I have recently used a source called Tirenet. I believe it was www.tirenet.com and purchased Broadway Classic radials in 235/75/15 for my 68 Conv. I believe I paid about $250 for four. This price included shipping to a local tire store and everything except $10 each for mount and balance. I am very happy with the appearance and ride. I also purchased a set of Dunlap 1" whitewalls for my 73 LeBaron and am extremely pleased with these at around $215 for the set plus mount and balance.

John -- 67 LeBaron
68 Conv
73 LeBaron

Subject: Re: IML: Tires
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:21:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Imperial67@aol.com

>Hello all, I need looking for new tires for my 63 four door. I had Yokohama 235 75R15 radial with a 1 3/8" whitewall for the past three years. An excellent tire, held up well and looked great, of course Yokohama no longer makes a wide white wall tire. I'm actually having trouble finding any manufacturer that have a whitewall of 1 3/8". So what does everyone use on their vehicles. I'd like to avoid going to a standard 1" whitewall. Please help!

Firestone still periodically manufactures a "721" model of tire in size 235/75R15 that comes exclusively in a 1-5/8" whitewall and is extra-load (XL) rated. I've recommended it several times before here and have had a set on my '67 Crown for nearly ten years with good results. I also put a set on my '78 NYB Salon this summer because they are the exact replacement for the Firestone 721 LR78-15 1-5/8" "wider whitewall" that came with the Salon Package and were also offered as a standalone option in 1977 and 1978.

Check your Firestone dealer, and if he says they are not available, make him call the regional warehouse or find another Firestone dealer.

Because I happened to get mine between production runs, I had to call an old friend at Bridgestone Firestone corporate HQ and she found me ten tires buried in a warehouse in Hawaii (the FedEx charges more than made up for the great price, but they should come to about $75/tire retail). That should not be necessary now as I heard they did this year's run and they are once again in stock. Be warned, however, that at the time I was searching, there were 3,300 back orders... hopefully they recognized the popularity of this tire for collector cars of the 60s and made more than that number.

(By the way, the extra five tires I bought were for a friend and are not available for sale!)

Chris H.

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